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Re: Canada Formula 1 [Re: CharlieBauer] #5131773 06/11/19 09:14 PM
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Call me crazy but howany laps transpired after that event??? 4-5 right... If Hamilton was truly faster then he had PLENTY of time to get around the car in front of him. If that event happens on the last lap then that a whole different story... Ok... Said event happens... But you have got a good number of laps to make a move and pass that guy... You do it.... Don't wait for the officials to make a "move" for you... That's sissified.


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Re: Canada Formula 1 [Re: bbhero] #5131938 06/12/19 02:16 AM
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I've read some comments from a couple of recent F1 drivers. They say the same thing I did. Rules are rules. Vettel cracked under pressure, made a mistake, and reentered the track in an unsafe manner. He made the mistake and broke the rule. Ergo he earned the penalty. Lewis won the race fair and square.

If the drivers or teams don't like a rule, they can work to change it, or stop racing.

In the racing series I participate in, some have left the sport because of rules they didn't like. Some proposed rules have been shelved because of their unpopularity.

But on any given race day, there are rules in affect. Break those rules, and you'll pay the price.

Behaving like a spoiled 5 year old won't change the outcome.

Re: Canada Formula 1 [Re: newbe46] #5131972 06/12/19 04:04 AM
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48583803

I tend to agree with Jolyon. Seb opened the steering after he had caught the oversteer and moved towards the wall on the right. According to a source I read somewhere he did look in his mirror. As Jolyon says, it's a natural, instinctive move - defend your position. He left a car's width, then drifted further over.

I'm not a Hamilton fan particularly and I agree the whole thing leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but as many have said - rules are rules; you don't simply ignore the ones you don't agree with. The mistake should have cost Vettel - it's another pressure-forced error which is starting to define his Ferrari career. In fact I think Hamilton did really well not to collect Vettel and take them both out.


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Re: Canada Formula 1 [Re: bbhero] #5132349 06/12/19 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Call me crazy but howany laps transpired after that event??? 4-5 right... If Hamilton was truly faster then he had PLENTY of time to get around the car in front of him. If that event happens on the last lap then that a whole different story... Ok... Said event happens... But you have got a good number of laps to make a move and pass that guy... You do it.... Don't wait for the officials to make a "move" for you... That's sissified.

Looked to me like Ham had a great chance to pass Vettel when the latter messed up by going over the grass, but then Vettel used the wall to prevent a pass and force Ham to lose even more energy than he had.
I'm sure a lot of passes occur when the guy in front makes that little mistake and opens a window, part of being faster is exploiting the other guys' weaknesses and not just the raw performance of the machine combined with the ability to pilot it well through an empty course....
I'm not a race expert in the slightest and respect the variety of opinions here, but the video seems pretty clear here to my novice eyes.


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Re: Canada Formula 1 [Re: hallstevenson] #5134617 06/15/19 05:30 AM
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With respect to what Palmer or Rosberg said, there is a significant number of ex-drivers who believe Vettel should not have been penalized. Rosberg's opinion doesn't count, to put it bluntly, because I'm sure he made his decision before watching the video. He hasn't had a positive thing to say about Vettel in three years. He has his head so far up Hamilton's backside that I would suggest had he been that way from the start, he'd still be driving and having a good relationship with Hamilton. I don't have a problem with the penalty if it were enforced across the board, though there still are valid reasons to dispute the penalty. As for Vettel's tantrum versus how it would be treated if Hamilton did the same, I went on record before and said he should have been made to sit out a race or two after his freak out about Charlie Whiting. In the end, I believe Vettel has an argument as to why the penalty isn't warranted and there is a technical defence, and I can also see that there is a case for the penalty. My point is it should not have been handed out, given what's been allowed in the past. Again, track limits violations should be, in my view, sternly enforced, but that's not what the FIA has done for a few years already.

Originally Posted by hallstevenson
It was Hamilton that radio'd his team to tell them to notify officials so Hamilton can't throw his hands up and act like "don't blame me, I didn't make the decision". Now this part I don't know, but if Mercedes hadn't said something, would they still look at it ? Maybe, maybe not ? I presume they would still look at it on their own but since a racer basically requested a look, they gave Seb's actions more scrutiny.

As much as it pains me, I have to defend Hamilton on this. That's what the drivers have to do. They have to justify what they do and complain about what others do - this business of talking like lawyers, as Vettel put it. As it is, we've seen incidents over the years where it isn't clear who should be penalized but someone gets one anyhow, and the drivers are in the unfortunate position of having to plead a case briefly on the air.

I have a real problem with team radio and the issues it creates when we're exposed to it. We have to remember that FOM chooses what to broadcast on the air and they do it to make a show. I don't believe teams even have the authority to release extra portions of the exchanges (except by transcript), because of broadcast rights. FOM creates a climate and has created issues before. Look at what they did to manufacture the issue that caused team radio to be severely curtailed. FOM chose to broadcast a bunch of cryptic and technical radio exchanges about drivers being talked through changing steering wheel settings. Of course, commentators are going to notice this and they talk about what's said. FOM releases more of these, and all of a sudden, we're presented with an issue of drivers not driving the cars but being coached by engineers. FIA panics and bans all kinds of communication even to the point that reliability is endangered and there are even safety concerns. Drivers and teams get all annoyed and the FIA realizes the error and goes back to the old way of doing things. However, we don't hear nearly as many oddball exchanges about wheel settings between drivers and engineers. We hear some, but not like we did when FOM created this issue. The drivers and engineers are still going through settings, but we don't hear about it, because FOM chooses not to broadcast it.

Similarly, FOM can choose to release all of a driver's freak outs (and most tend to do it often enough) and whine fests or keep them hidden as they choose. They use team radio snippets to create drama (Hamilton's incessant tire complaints in Monaco) or comedy (Kimi is always good for something somewhere).


Plain, simple Garak.

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Re: Canada Formula 1 [Re: Virtus_Probi] #5136178 06/16/19 10:19 PM
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I'm clearly speaking after that EVENT....

Pass the car in front of you.... He had 4 laps to get it done... Do be a panzy... And wait for the "officials" to do it for you.

If this was last lap... Whole different story. No doubt.


Like at Sonoma when Ricky Rudd moved Davey Allison out of the way in turn 11... And Ricky really really moved him out of the way... Way, way, way more aggressive than this whole deal here in this F1 race. Heading to the white flag... NASCAR made the decision to show Ricky Rudd the black flag instead of the checkers...then Davey came through and got the checkered flag... At least that made more sense than this garbage.

That guy had PLENTY of time to actually pass him... No where near the same as what happened in NASCAR at Sonoma....

Last edited by bbhero; 06/16/19 10:22 PM.

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Re: Canada Formula 1 [Re: bbhero] #5136439 06/17/19 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bbhero
That guy had PLENTY of time to actually pass him... No where near the same as what happened in NASCAR at Sonoma....


I'm not sure you quite get the aerodynamic difference between an F1 car and a Nascar tractor and the limitations that puts on the F1 cars.

Nascar can actually follow a car close enough to line up a pass without totally destroying a set of tyres. An F1 car can't get that close for fear of Ricciardoing a Verstappen when they lose all downforce on the front end.

Passes need a huge power difference, a will to "win it or bin it" and outside assistance from something like DRS. Hamilton had exactly one of those three at that circuit. He pushed Vettel until he snapped.

I don't necessarily agree with the way it went down, but rules are rules. Roll on 2021 regs and cars that are supposed to be able to follow without falling into an aerodynamic hole.

Re: Canada Formula 1 [Re: Brad_C] #5137114 06/17/19 10:35 PM
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He still had 4 plus laps.... Plenty of time.

Again.. if this happens one the last lap. . Ok. It's a lot different. Or if it happens on the next to the last lap before taking a white flag... Ok I can buy that too...

If his car was faster... Which everything seemed to indicate that potential... Pass him... And he probably could have done so. But he wanted a "official" to do it for him...

It wasn't like he lost say 2,3 or 4 seconds to Vettel in that incident.. if that had happened then it would have been a very different circumstance. I could look at it differently had that been the case. But that is not what happened here... He really did not lose hardly any time.


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Re: Canada Formula 1 [Re: bbhero] #5156265 07/10/19 12:10 AM
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In 20/20 hindsight, if I were handling Ferrari strategy, I'd have immediately told Vettel to give up the place, and he would have retaken it on the straight. That no one thought of it at the time, period, shows you the penalty was in left field.

Edd Straw made a very telling point. He stated it's not even apparent that Hamilton had to move further over than he normally did there. People abuse that part of the track all the time, and Hamilton may or may not have been squeezed. It wasn't conclusive at all. Sure, he had to brake. That's what happens when a car is in front of you.

Gary Anderson, normally a fierce critic of Vettel, points out that that last thing a five time champion should be doing, when seeing a car clatter across the grass from left to right, is to try to grab the gap on the right. It's a recipe for disaster.

The stewarding is terrible and there's no consistency. Max didn't get penalized at Austria, which is the way it should be. However, in comparison to this episode, the stewarding is nonsensical. Enforce track limits or don't enforce track limits.

The stewarding policy about track limits seems to be something akin to, well, track limits are only a problem when they're a problem.


Plain, simple Garak.

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