A case FOR 5w-30 vs 5w-20

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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by nicholas
Car in question - 2010 Santa Fe 3.5.
It had 5w-20 for 142,000kms - - at 142,500 the exhaust CVVT actuator seals went - requiring a total exhaust sidereplacement.
Oil was changed every 6 months regardless of kms - - -usually changed between 3-5000 kms - with syn 5w-20 or 0w-20 in the winter.

My commute is a 1.5 to 2 min suburban drive to work very little highway driving. In winter it can get -30 celsius for weeks.....

Most likely a high fuel concentration - - - - The tech seemed to think that the oil had thinned down and could not protect the seal anymore, over a number of years.

I just switched to a 5w-30 - - engine is much quieter and feel smoother - - - -

I think in certain driving situations 5w-20 does not work for all engines. Like my very short tripping.

My 2c

Everytime you change the oil, the engine is going to run quieter and smoother because new oil has significantly less friction than used oil.

In addition, I don't know if you're using a different brand and making an apples vs. oranges comparison.

Seal life has nothing to do with the oil viscosity but only the seal compatibility of the base oil and additives.

Most 5W-20 oils have substantially thicker base oils than 5W-30 oils and they protect the valvetrain, timing chain, piston rings, and cylinder liners better than 5W-30 oils do. That's because 5W-30 uses more VII and they need to use a thinner base oil to be able to still meet the cold-cranking spec. 5W-30 will protect the bearings better because of the higher HTHS viscosity but most people don't run into problems in that area to begin with.


So are you suggesting the 5w20 is better for short trips? This is the first claim I've seen on here that 20 weights protect certain areas better than 30 weights and vice versa.

Not challenging...just trying to learn.

Is there there any proof to this?
 
Originally Posted by Floyd1
So are you suggesting the 5w20 is better for short trips? This is the first claim I've seen on here that 20 weights protect certain areas better than 30 weights and vice versa.

Not challenging...just trying to learn.

Is there there any proof to this?

Unfortunately, these are subjects few people understand. Nevertheless, people make simplistic assumptions about fuel dilution/CAFE etc. and increase the recommended viscosity spread without understanding what it does.

When multigrade oils were first introduced, people assumed that they would substitute for the monograde oils but that turned out to be not the case.

Then, HTHS viscosity was introduced.

More recently, especially with the chain wear in the TGDI engines, it's being apparent that the HTHS does not apply to the valvetrain but the base-oil viscosity applies. There was a paper by Nissan that was posted here. I have discussed many aspects of this subject in many threads. Chevron also has a lot of presentations on this with regard to wear in heavy-duty diesel engines.

If 5W-20 is recommended for an application, that's what I would use for better wear protection. When you increase the viscosity spread to 5W-30, you're going to a thinner base oil as explained in my previous post. As I said, 5W-20 has a thicker base oil than 5W-30 and that would give me more peace of mind as far as wear is concerned. It also has less VII polymer than 5W-30 and you get less engine, turbocharger, etc. deposits. It's a win - win choice.
 
Originally Posted by nicholas
Car in question - 2010 Santa Fe 3.5.
It had 5w-20 for 142,000kms - - at 142,500 the exhaust CVVT actuator seals went - requiring a total exhaust sidereplacement.
Oil was changed every 6 months regardless of kms - - -usually changed between 3-5000 kms - with syn 5w-20 or 0w-20 in the winter.

My commute is a 1.5 to 2 min suburban drive to work very little highway driving. In winter it can get -30 celsius for weeks.....

Most likely a high fuel concentration - - - - The tech seemed to think that the oil had thinned down and could not protect the seal anymore, over a number of years.

I just switched to a 5w-30 - - engine is much quieter and feel smoother - - - -

I think in certain driving situations 5w-20 does not work for all engines. Like my very short tripping.

My 2c



You want a thick 5w30 for year-round, even winter in Canada. Use Quaker State synthetic. That brand is even recommended by Hyundai.
 
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"5W-30 will protect the bearings better because of the higher HTHS viscosity but most people don't run into problems in that area to begin with" ... *If you drive a Hyundai 2.4L GDI engine - then you sure as heck need to be concerned with bearing wear !
 
If you drive a Hyundai or Kia with a faulty engine, 5w30 vs 5w20 will make absolutely no difference to your bearings. Oil doesn't fix manufacturing errors. Now, if you wish to use 5w30 because you don't like the idea of running a 20, live in the Middle East, have stashed that grade in your garage or want to use the primary recommendation in some countries, there's nothing wrong with that.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by nicholas
Car in question - 2010 Santa Fe 3.5.
It had 5w-20 for 142,000kms - - at 142,500 the exhaust CVVT actuator seals went - requiring a total exhaust sidereplacement.
Oil was changed every 6 months regardless of kms - - -usually changed between 3-5000 kms - with syn 5w-20 or 0w-20 in the winter.

My commute is a 1.5 to 2 min suburban drive to work very little highway driving. In winter it can get -30 celsius for weeks.....

Most likely a high fuel concentration - - - - The tech seemed to think that the oil had thinned down and could not protect the seal anymore, over a number of years.

I just switched to a 5w-30 - - engine is much quieter and feel smoother - - - -

I think in certain driving situations 5w-20 does not work for all engines. Like my very short tripping.

My 2c

Everytime you change the oil, the engine is going to run quieter and smoother because new oil has significantly less friction than used oil.

In addition, I don't know if you're using a different brand and making an apples vs. oranges comparison.

Seal life has nothing to do with the oil viscosity but only the seal compatibility of the base oil and additives.

Most 5W-20 oils have substantially thicker base oils than 5W-30 oils and they protect the valvetrain, timing chain, piston rings, and cylinder liners better than 5W-30 oils do. That's because 5W-30 uses more VII and they need to use a thinner base oil to be able to still meet the cold-cranking spec. 5W-30 will protect the bearings better because of the higher HTHS viscosity but most people don't run into problems in that area to begin with.



So 0W-16 is even better because of eve less VII?
 
Go with a 5w20 for the reasons Gokahn stated. Less spread the better. I'm using M1 5w20. It will also maintain its viscosity better if there is fuel dilution.
 
0w20 real synthetic.

Like M1 EP or VW508/509

and dont overchange the oil!

At most conservative 6 months 7K miles.

Take a little highway trip a couple times a month.
 
I'd find a longer way to go to work to warm everything up a bit. Lots of options in Ottawa, trust me.
 
Originally Posted by metroplex
So 0W-16 is even better because of eve less VII?

Going below HTHS viscosity < 2.6 cP is risky for most existing engines, as their bearings are not designed for that. That's why GF-6B is separate than GF-6A and there will be a shield mark on 0W-16 bottles.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by metroplex
So 0W-16 is even better because of eve less VII?

Going below HTHS viscosity < 2.6 cP is risky for most existing engines, as their bearings are not designed for that. That's why GF-6B is separate than GF-6A and there will be a shield mark on 0W-16 bottles.


Piston rings are more susceptible to wear as the oil viscosity decreases because the MOFT is small to start with, the piston rings can have higher oil shear rates than journal bearings and the oil temperature in the ring pack is higher than inside journal bearings. Most xW-20 oils are in the range of 150C HTHS viscosity = 2.6~2.7 cP ... so you're operating near the edge of where the protection level starts falling off.

Piston Ring Wear vs HTHS at 130C Oil Temp.JPG
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Piston rings are more susceptible to wear as the oil viscosity decreases because the MOFT is small to start with, the piston rings can have higher oil shear rates than journal bearings and the oil temperature in the ring pack is higher than inside journal bearings. Most xW-20 oils are in the range of 150C HTHS viscosity = 2.6~2.7 cP ... so you're operating near the edge of where the protection level starts falling off.

If you look at the curves, 2.6 cP (xW-20) resulted in less piston-ring wear than 3.1 cP (xW-30), probably thanks to a thicker base oil.

It's not clear what the 2.2 cP and 2.4 cP oils were. Did they have very thin base oils? We have seen some xW-16 test oils used in Japan in the past that performed very poorly and it's not clear why. I'm sure any GF-6B certified 0W-16 oil will be required to pass a series of wear tests to the level of thicker oils.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Piston rings are more susceptible to wear as the oil viscosity decreases because the MOFT is small to start with, the piston rings can have higher oil shear rates than journal bearings and the oil temperature in the ring pack is higher than inside journal bearings. Most xW-20 oils are in the range of 150C HTHS viscosity = 2.6~2.7 cP ... so you're operating near the edge of where the protection level starts falling off.

If you look at the curves, 2.6 cP (xW-20) resulted in less piston-ring wear than 3.1 cP (xW-30), probably thanks to a thicker base oil.

It's not clear what the 2.2 cP and 2.4 cP oils were. Did they have very thin base oils? We have seen some xW-16 test oils used in Japan in the past that performed very poorly and it's not clear why. I'm sure any GF-6B certified 0W-16 oil will be required to pass a series of wear tests to the level of thicker oils.


That graph says nothing about what oil viscosities were used, or what oil viscosity gave the specific HTHS viscosity ... it's just HTHS vs piston ring wear at different engine RPM. It pretty much shows that HTHS below 2.6 cP starts to increase wear, just like you stated. The graph also shows that increased engine RPM increases wear ... which should be pretty obvious since increased RPM means increased shear rate and increased oil temperature rise, resulting in less viscosity and less MOFT.
 
*I see you use a 30W synthetic in the Miami area - curious why as I believe your vehicles are spec'd for 20W ?
Originally Posted by wemay
If you drive a Hyundai or Kia with a faulty engine, 5w30 vs 5w20 will make absolutely no difference to your bearings. Oil doesn't fix manufacturing errors. Now, if you wish to use 5w30 because you don't like the idea of running a 20, live in the Middle East, have stashed that grade in your garage or want to use the primary recommendation in some countries, there's nothing wrong with that.
 
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*I see you use a 30W synthetic in the Miami area - curious why as I believe your vehicles are spec'd for 20W ?
Originally Posted by wemay
If you drive a Hyundai or Kia with a faulty engine, 5w30 vs 5w20 will make absolutely no difference to your bearings. Oil doesn't fix manufacturing errors. Now, if you wish to use 5w30 because you don't like the idea of running a 20, live in the Middle East, have stashed that grade in your garage or want to use the primary recommendation in some countries, there's nothing wrong with that.



I use 5w20, 5w30 and 10w30. Always have in my 2.4L Thetta II engines...and i've had three.
 
Originally Posted by BlueOvalFitter
From what I have always read here at BITOG, there is VERY little difference between 5W20 & 5W30 oil. Is this true?
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I wouldn't exactly say that. In some cases the viscosity isn't far apart as you will find a lot of 5w20s at around 9 cst at 100c and a lot of 5w30s at around 10 cst at 100c. But the difference lies in the HTHS, a 5w20 is around 2.6 to 2.7 while the 5w30 is going to be closer to 3.0 to 3.1. That difference can be significant if you tend to drive your car harder.
 
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