Hemi 5w20 choice

[wemay]

Originally Posted by Treadstone
Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by Treadstone
Originally Posted by dave1251

And the Red Line doesn't meet any specs but he has no issues recommending it.


Maybe learn to read? English as a second language maybe? He didn't mention Redline.


Maybe check the history behind recent Hemi discussions before leveling insults.

burla's passionate about Hemi's and swears by Red Line.

His opponents are passionate about keeping the warranty intact with specified quality oils.


Another one with a reading comprehension problem. In the context of this thread, he did not.


This thread falls well within context of very recent discussions here over the same subject.

 

[GMBoy]

I have been running Mobil 1 0W/30 in my 5.7 Hemi Ram and like it.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by WillB
Is it ok to run a 5w30 with mds?


About 45% of members in a hemi forum run 5w30 and thicker, only one guy said he got a CEL but it wasn't credible, never But fca did raise viscosity on 1500's to correct bearing wear issues in another application, so they believe thicker oil will protect against that situation, but they literally can't recomend that for the 5.7 because the gov't is all over them with CAFE. Yes, it is safe.

I agree. While having my airbag recall done I spoke with a friend who is a Jeep A-tech and we discussed the cam failure issue. It seems cam issues are not limited to the hemi. Chrysler outsources their cams, they are not made in house. There are people in engineering who feel the issue has to do with the zinc reduction in the oil. He and other people I discussed this with and respect seem to agree. He suggests bumping up a grade to a 30 and using a high ZDDP oil, or Heaven forbid a ZDDP additive.

I think it certainly won't hurt, and I would give it a shot. 1,200-1,500 ppm ZDDP seems to be the sweet spot according to what I've been told. Opinions vary. Flame suit on.

Want 5w30? Want zinc ?
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-prod...e-5w-30-synthetic-heavy-duty-diesel-oil/

 

[OptOut]

Gonna do 5000 mile oil changes OR every November and may, whichever comes first. I'll baby it maintenence-wise but I drive seme-rural daily with cold starts and hard driving while responding for calls.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Danno
Just curious why folks here recommend oils that don't have manufacturer required certs for engines still in warranty?


The 2019 owner's manual indicates that they recommend an oil that is API-certified AND meets spec MS-6395. However, the strongest verbiage is "Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number should not be used", certification being, per the earlier page, the API certification, as MS-6395 is noted as being an approval, not certification.

The only notation about warranty impact is with respect to using chemical flushes.

This is different from the much firmer language in my SRT manual, which states:
Quote
Use Pennzoil Ultra 0W-40 engine or equivalent MOPAR oil meeting the FCA Material Standard MS-12633 for use in all operating temperatures.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by WillB
Is it ok to run a 5w30 with mds?


About 45% of members in a hemi forum run 5w30 and thicker, only one guy said he got a CEL but it wasn't credible, never any follow up despite being asked many times, honestly it could have been a typo on the poll. 100's of guys running 5w30 w/o issue in polls oer there. A larger consideration is why have this many people decided to ditch the manu on this, and the answer to that is the large number of forum members who have cam failures to due heavy wear. Whether or not using a thicker oil will help that or not is another matter. But fca did raise viscosity on 1500's to correct bearing wear issues in another application, so they believe thicker oil will protect against that situation, but they literally can't recomend that for the 5.7 because the gov't is all over them with CAFE. Yes, it is safe.

I agree. While having my airbag recall done I spoke with a friend who is a Jeep A-tech and we discussed the cam failure issue. It seems cam issues are not limited to the hemi. Chrysler outsources their cams, they are not made in house. There are people in engineering who feel the issue has to do with the zinc reduction in the oil. He and other people I discussed this with and respect seem to agree. He suggests bumping up a grade to a 30 and using a high ZDDP oil, or Heaven forbid a ZDDP additive.

I think it certainly won't hurt, and I would give it a shot. 1,200-1,500 ppm ZDDP seems to be the sweet spot according to what I've been told. Opinions vary. Flame suit on.


Roller engines do not have high ZDDP requirements, as the roller rolls; it's not a sliding interface. The requirement for higher levels of phosphorous stem from the higher pressure sliding interface on a flat tappet setup where you have the lifter spinning and sliding directly on the lobe, with this sacrificial layer being the only thing keeping those two components from eating each other. Elevated levels are deemed beneficial when those pressures are increased due to wilder camshaft profiles and higher spring pressures for high RPM operation. If a roller starts sliding, you've already got failure, as it's a setup that isn't designed/engineered to function in that manner and a sliding (seized) roller presents a ridiculously narrow interface to a lobe that isn't designed for sliding contact and failure of both units will be the result.

You could run all the ZDDP in the world, but if that roller stops rolling, it's still going to eat the lobe, as neither of those surfaces are designed to operate as sliding interfaces. The metallurgy is wrong, the geometry is wrong and the mode of operation is wrong. A flat tappet interface is broad and rotates, whilst a roller is extremely narrow in comparison and is intentionally designed NOT to change its alignment with the lobe.

 

[4WD]

I think most here understand that basic lifter comparison …
but if anti wear protection does not matter … why do they wear out so fast ?

 

[dave1251]

Bad installation, metallurgy, and or design. This particular failure is not wide spread so the design part we can rule out.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
This is different from the much firmer language in my SRT manual, which states:
Quote
Use Pennzoil Ultra 0W-40 engine or equivalent MOPAR oil meeting the FCA Material Standard MS-12633 for use in all operating temperatures.
Is the non-SRT hemi so different to the point that 0W-40 cannot be used in them? Asking for a friend...

 

[SteveSRT8]

Nope. The 0w-40 oils work very well in MDS equipped vehicles and non MDS like my sig car, which states 0w-40 right on the fill cap.

The engines are extremely similar...

 

[4WD]

Was just looking & trying to understand that stuff … a 40 with more moly ?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by 4WD
I think most here understand that basic lifter comparison …
but if anti wear protection does not matter … why do they wear out so fast ?


I'm not saying it doesn't matter, it simply isn't as relevant at the lifter/lobe interface with roller like it is with an FT rig. You still have the lifter/bore interface that is sliding contact for example, amongst others, but the pressures at these interfaces are nothing like what an aggressively cammed FT mill with heavy springs sees at the lobe/lifter, which is where elevated levels of phosphorous are valuable.

If we look at the myriad cam-over-bucket setups on the market, which are extremely similar to FT, like Ford's little DOHC 4-popper, these are setups that, despite being sliding contact, don't require elevated levels of ZDDP to keep wear in check. While Euro oils have traditionally had higher levels over GF-5 lubes, these are typically products that are also run in M-cars, Porsches, AMG's...etc. So I believe there is some generosity with the AW dosing that goes along with that. And of course that's also being ramped down with the low-SAPS push and reduced viscosity specs we are now seeing with the Euro marques.

Roller setups, properly engineered, don't wear out. And no amount of AW dosing is going to rectify an engineering or materials quality issue. So while looking at increasing ZDDP level's because you put a Lunatti Voodoo in your SBC is logical, that same approach doesn't work if you are having failures with a roller mill because the mode of operation isn't the same. The geometry of a roller setup doesn't work with sliding contact, so it WILL fail if that's happens. The requirement is to keep the roller rolling, if there is a design or materials problem that makes this difficult, there may be some merit in looking at oils that deal with this issue better than others. I would speculate that this may be due to base oil composition.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
This is different from the much firmer language in my SRT manual, which states:
Quote
Use Pennzoil Ultra 0W-40 engine or equivalent MOPAR oil meeting the FCA Material Standard MS-12633 for use in all operating temperatures.
Is the non-SRT hemi so different to the point that 0W-40 cannot be used in them? Asking for a friend...


Nope, most of the parts are identical between the two mills.

 

[4WD]

It starts at the break in process … ring metal is not kind to cams and related …
I'd dump FF early in these … Go to a 20 micron filter

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Bad installation, metallurgy, and or design. This particular failure is not wide spread so the design part we can rule out.


I disagree with this statement, it is common, and another thing that hints how bad it is are the uoa's in Hemi's. They are a very high wear engine despite not having to work hard to get 390 hp as in rpm's.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by dave1251
Bad installation, metallurgy, and or design. This particular failure is not wide spread so the design part we can rule out.


I disagree with this statement, it is common, and another thing that hints how bad it is are the uoa's in Hemi's. They are a very high wear engine despite not having to work hard to get 390 hp as in rpm's.


Probably the worst UOA's came from SBC's IIRC, yet they still lasted and lasted. I wouldn't take UOA's as any sort of barometer for longevity, that's not their purpose.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by 4WD
It starts at the break in process … ring metal is not kind to cams and related …
I'd dump FF early in these … Go to a 20 micron filter


If it gets to the cam/roller interface, I agree. If it gets into the needle bearings? ewwww. I always dump early and run high efficiency filters. Served me well with my Ford engines and I suspect it will with my MOPAR ones.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by dave1251
Bad installation, metallurgy, and or design. This particular failure is not wide spread so the design part we can rule out.


I disagree with this statement, it is common, and another thing that hints how bad it is are the uoa's in Hemi's. They are a very high wear engine despite not having to work hard to get 390 hp as in rpm's.



It's not common. If you are a HEMI owner you have a better chance of totaling your vehicle then experiencing a failure.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by WillB
Is it ok to run a 5w30 with mds?


About 45% of members in a hemi forum run 5w30 and thicker, only one guy said he got a CEL but it wasn't credible, never But fca did raise viscosity on 1500's to correct bearing wear issues in another application, so they believe thicker oil will protect against that situation, but they literally can't recomend that for the 5.7 because the gov't is all over them with CAFE. Yes, it is safe.

I agree. While having my airbag recall done I spoke with a friend who is a Jeep A-tech and we discussed the cam failure issue. It seems cam issues are not limited to the hemi. Chrysler outsources their cams, they are not made in house. There are people in engineering who feel the issue has to do with the zinc reduction in the oil. He and other people I discussed this with and respect seem to agree. He suggests bumping up a grade to a 30 and using a high ZDDP oil, or Heaven forbid a ZDDP additive.

I think it certainly won't hurt, and I would give it a shot. 1,200-1,500 ppm ZDDP seems to be the sweet spot according to what I've been told. Opinions vary. Flame suit on.

Want 5w30? Want zinc ?
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-prod...e-5w-30-synthetic-heavy-duty-diesel-oil/

That may very well be the ticket. Or an Amsoil Frankenbrew containing some of it.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by dave1251
Bad installation, metallurgy, and or design. This particular failure is not wide spread so the design part we can rule out.


I disagree with this statement, it is common, and another thing that hints how bad it is are the uoa's in Hemi's. They are a very high wear engine despite not having to work hard to get 390 hp as in rpm's.


Probably the worst UOA's came from SBC's IIRC, yet they still lasted and lasted. I wouldn't take UOA's as any sort of barometer for longevity, that's not their purpose.


Agreed, not talking about longevity, I am talking about the number of fails that is clearly larger then other applications. Something that the hemi forums are realizing is how prevelent this is. Yes, it does occur in other applications like Chevy and Ford but in much less numbers. When you see the guys who do this daily like motor city mechanic and all of the others of his ilk you see how many hemi's come though these places with cam fails that aren't in any dealer data. So yes every hemi is wearing way more then their counter parts no matter what the lube, and yet most are reliable and will last very well, but also they are experience cam/lifter fails much more and it is possible the wear numbers tell part of that story. If your hemi fails out of warranty who do you take it to, a dealer that charges 7 grand for a cam/lifter swap, or a mechanic that charges 3800? Seams like MANY hemi's in the 70k to 150k mile mark are having this issue.

Again, can lubrication be a part of correcting this, maybe or maybe not, but nothing to loose to try. Why choose a sparce additive low viscosity oil? What would be the arguement? Since you recomend a non spec oil, that leaves the conversation, so we can't argue because it meets spec since the oil you recomended isn't a spec'd oil. That's my point, have a conversation on the best possible lubrication when facing the issue, maybe the answer is a low oci as well. maybe additives, which I have never been a real big fan of, but then again I never had hemi tick until I bought a hemi. Since in most cases it is a single cam lob that gets wiped and not heavy wear through the lobs, if their is a mechinical answer, it would have to be in the lifter, and I still haven't seen the answer to why that single lifter wiped out the lob. If we can solve that, we can go back to recomend any oil that passes minimum requirements as a great option. All I can say personally, this is my first and last hemi. It has been ticking since 3500 miles new and the dealer says normal. Eventhough I bought it off showroom floor and it wasn't ticking then, by the time the dealer did first oil chnage tick tick tick, that sounds like a knock. I changed my lubrication, tick is gone. My engine ticked on the spec oil the dealer used, doesn't tick with a heartier additive oil.