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Re: Over-the-top break-in oil change recommendation? [Re: JohnnyJohnson] #5120535
05/30/19 05:51 PM
05/30/19 05:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 40,156
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 40,156
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted by kschachn
But the “wear metals” that show up on a UOA obtained by elemental spectrography are not what is causing damage, if any. The damage causing particles are generally too large to show up on a standard UOA.


Really and just how large are these parts in microns?


Which ones? The limits for a "typical" UOA are below 5 microns in terms of what shows up. Those aren't damage causing. The ones you can see; the "sparklies" in the first or first few changes of oil? Those are the ones I'd personally want out of there.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Over-the-top break-in oil change recommendation? [Re: doyall] #5120543
05/30/19 06:09 PM
05/30/19 06:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 580
Hither & Yon
Hounds Offline
Hounds  Offline

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 580
Hither & Yon
I wish I'd kept a few of the owners' manuals from my '70s, '80s and '90s Hondas (Civics and Accords) so I could quote them here. In this regard, for decades Honda instructed new owners not to change the initial factory fill before the prescribed interval, actually referring to it as a "special oil" used to facilitate the break-in process. That same advice appeared, word for word, on the "official" Honda website (www.owners.honda.com) until approximately two or three years ago. Then it disappeared. Now there's nothing whatsoever regarding the factory fill in the owners' manuals or on the website. The only maintenance advice given is to adhere to the service intervals prescribed by the Mileage Monitor. (Footnote of sorts: For a short period the website advised that changing the engine oil before it was necessary -- i.e., in accordance with the MM service advisory -- was "unnecessary and wasteful." Again, that's now gone.)

So, those of us who have owned Hondas for years are left to wonder what become of the "special oil" and the advisory. (Another footnote: To this day oil analyses of the initial factory fill still reflect a boatload of MoS2; typically in the range of 600-700 ppm.) Did Honda decide that the prior advisory was a holdover from the days of conventional oil that was no longer necessary? Too confusing? We can only wonder.

Re: Over-the-top break-in oil change recommendation? [Re: kschachn] #5120561
05/30/19 06:31 PM
05/30/19 06:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,910
Wet side WA
JohnnyJohnson Offline
JohnnyJohnson  Offline

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,910
Wet side WA
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Well that's all very nice but where are the particle sizes they are talking?

I know you asked that but it doesn’t matter. The method shown in the graphic is the one used in a typical UOA such as what Blackstome performs and that is what I was commenting on.



Yes it does or you would have never mention it!


2004 Corolla 134004
Out: EDGE EP 5W-30 Bosch 3311 7156 Miles
In: Havoline Pro DS 10w-30 Purolator PureOne 3-14-19 129693
2006 Duramax 75175
Out: T6 5W-40 M1-303
In: T6 5W-40 XG9100 73705 4-22-18
Re: Over-the-top break-in oil change recommendation? [Re: JohnnyJohnson] #5120599
05/30/19 07:24 PM
05/30/19 07:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,689
Upper Midwest
kschachn Online content
kschachn  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,689
Upper Midwest
I really don’t know the sizes. I do know it depends upon the composition of the particles, the shape of the particles, the number of them and the machine that is being used. OVERKILL gave you a size, that may be correct. There was another guy on here who knew a lot more about this than I did, and he gave some numbers too. But I can’t find that post.

Back in the day when I was in college and did oil analysis for our fluid power department I knew a lot about atomic absorption and what types and sizes of particles could be detected. But these days with ICP I don’t know a specific size. I’m sure if you search it you can find it.


1994 BMW 530i, 242K
1996 Honda Accord, 277K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 418K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 281K
Re: Over-the-top break-in oil change recommendation? [Re: OVERKILL] #5120609
05/30/19 07:39 PM
05/30/19 07:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 32,479
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 32,479
NY
Originally Posted by OVERKILL


Which ones? The limits for a "typical" UOA are below 5 microns in terms of what shows up. Those aren't damage causing. The ones you can see; the "sparklies" in the first or first few changes of oil? Those are the ones I'd personally want out of there.

I want them out too, and for me it is as simple as changing the oil sooner rather than later, that gets them out faster. Some say it's well worth it and beneficial. Some say all it accomplishes is a good feeling. If that's all it accomplishes so be it, I like feeling good. wink


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Over-the-top break-in oil change recommendation? [Re: kschachn] #5120651
05/30/19 08:12 PM
05/30/19 08:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,910
Wet side WA
JohnnyJohnson Offline
JohnnyJohnson  Offline

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,910
Wet side WA
Originally Posted by kschachn
I really don’t know the sizes. I do know it depends upon the composition of the particles, the shape of the particles, the number of them and the machine that is being used. OVERKILL gave you a size, that may be correct. There was another guy on here who knew a lot more about this than I did, and he gave some numbers too. But I can’t find that post.

Back in the day when I was in college and did oil analysis for our fluid power department I knew a lot about atomic absorption and what types and sizes of particles could be detected. But these days with ICP I don’t know a specific size. I’m sure if you search it you can find it.


LOL


2004 Corolla 134004
Out: EDGE EP 5W-30 Bosch 3311 7156 Miles
In: Havoline Pro DS 10w-30 Purolator PureOne 3-14-19 129693
2006 Duramax 75175
Out: T6 5W-40 M1-303
In: T6 5W-40 XG9100 73705 4-22-18
Re: Over-the-top break-in oil change recommendation? [Re: JohnnyJohnson] #5120742
05/30/19 09:56 PM
05/30/19 09:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,689
Upper Midwest
kschachn Online content
kschachn  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,689
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
LOL

Just a snarky remark? I was trying to be technical but I guess you are unable to converse on that level.

Seems that’s what we get a lot on Bitog a lot these days.


1994 BMW 530i, 242K
1996 Honda Accord, 277K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 418K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 281K
Re: Over-the-top break-in oil change recommendation? [Re: Hounds] #5121861
06/01/19 02:34 AM
06/01/19 02:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 959
WA
OilUzer Offline
OilUzer  Offline

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 959
WA
Originally Posted by Hounds
I wish I'd kept a few of the owners' manuals from my '70s, '80s and '90s Hondas (Civics and Accords) so I could quote them here. In this regard, for decades Honda instructed new owners not to change the initial factory fill before the prescribed interval, actually referring to it as a "special oil" used to facilitate the break-in process. That same advice appeared, word for word, on the "official" Honda website (www.owners.honda.com) until approximately two or three years ago. Then it disappeared. Now there's nothing whatsoever regarding the factory fill in the owners' manuals or on the website. The only maintenance advice given is to adhere to the service intervals prescribed by the Mileage Monitor. (Footnote of sorts: For a short period the website advised that changing the engine oil before it was necessary -- i.e., in accordance with the MM service advisory -- was "unnecessary and wasteful." Again, that's now gone.)

So, those of us who have owned Hondas for years are left to wonder what become of the "special oil" and the advisory. (Another footnote: To this day oil analyses of the initial factory fill still reflect a boatload of MoS2; typically in the range of 600-700 ppm.) Did Honda decide that the prior advisory was a holdover from the days of conventional oil that was no longer necessary? Too confusing? We can only wonder.


Same experience as you with the "special oil" ...

I talked to a Toyota master mechanic about changing the oil early (my car says 1st oil change @10K miles) and was told that factory fill has additional additives to help with break in and seals and at least drive 5000 miles if I want to change it early. He said don't worry going 10K miles with factory fill ... He wasn't concerned with small particles or even nuts and bolts floating around in the oil shocked2 I didn't do early change in any of my new cars and they all sound or sounded very smooth and don't burn any oil.

however if some om like Corvette or BMW, specify early oil change, I would follow.

I've never owned any car that specified early oil change. Wondering what's so different with these cars! Toyota has a huge market share and even in the days that you did not get a 2 years free oil change, they did not recommend early change so it's not about the money! Maybe they pressure wash inside the engine grin2

Re: Over-the-top break-in oil change recommendation? [Re: doyall] #5122404
06/01/19 03:36 PM
06/01/19 03:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 29
new orleans.la
sixsix Offline
sixsix  Offline

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 29
new orleans.la
2016 Honda Accord, I changed the oil for the first time at 10k miles, and every 10k miles after that. Fixing to hit 70k and change it again for the 7th time. I do about 2k miles a month so there is no way I'm gonna be changing my oil every 2 months. The car will still last way longer that I need it to anyway. Do people even keep cars long enough, or put enough miles on a car to really see a benefit from an early brake in oil change? Probably not. I do have a coworker that has a 2001 Civic Hatch that he bough brand new, all stock, with almost 440k miles on it and runs like a top. Mobil 1 oil changes every 7500-10000 miles, timing belt and water pump every 100k. Dude is even still on his original clutch and just replaced the radiator and hoses last week cause it sprung a leak.

Re: Over-the-top break-in oil change recommendation? [Re: doyall] #5122566
06/01/19 07:23 PM
06/01/19 07:23 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,982
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline
SubieRubyRoo  Offline

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,982
The land of USA-made Subies!
Bet he's not on his original distributor.

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