Toyota WS replacement

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
I will use the Idemitsu stuff when I service the GS transmission.
The real deal WS is not synthetic; those Toyota engineers must be a bunch of dummies.

Oh yeah, I have used Max Life in Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans for a long time.
Not a single problem. Good stuff, at least in my experience.

While I have seen on Toyota some stuff that defy logic in every aspect, I highly doubt this is the case.
Case in point: VW used full synthetic fluid in first versions of their DSG transmissions back in 2000's. However, they switched to semi-synthetic later as they found it better suitable.

You understand the dummy comment was joking...
 
Well if I were to substitute I'd definitely go Aisin, that said when I did a fluid exchange in our RX I used OEM Toyota WS as there's certainly nothing wrong with it.

It was all I used in my old 4th gen 4runner as well with no issues. WS is just fine, usually trouble starts a-brewin with poorly designed transmissions that are overtaxed and run hot, and AFAIK the U660E is pretty reliable with some fluid maintenance
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
I will use the Idemitsu stuff when I service the GS transmission.
The real deal WS is not synthetic; those Toyota engineers must be a bunch of dummies.

Oh yeah, I have used Max Life in Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans for a long time.
Not a single problem. Good stuff, at least in my experience.

While I have seen on Toyota some stuff that defy logic in every aspect, I highly doubt this is the case.
Case in point: VW used full synthetic fluid in first versions of their DSG transmissions back in 2000's. However, they switched to semi-synthetic later as they found it better suitable.

You understand the dummy comment was joking...

Sarcasm is hard to get if you state that WS is not synthetic (on BITOG) and then dummy part.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw

Sarcasm is hard to get if you state that WS is not synthetic (on BITOG) and then dummy part.


My understanding is WS is not synthetic.
Is that your understanding?
Thanks in advance.
 
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by edyvw

Sarcasm is hard to get if you state that WS is not synthetic (on BITOG) and then dummy part.


My understanding is WS is not synthetic.
Is that your understanding?
Thanks in advance.

I always read it was semi-syn
 
Originally Posted by Gebo
The only two ATF's that are specifically labeled specifically "WS" are Toyota and Aisin. NOTE...that I am aware of.
27.gif
And since Toyota does NOT license their ATF's I'm betting the Aisin WS is the same as Toyota WS.

Now you're aware of another:
https://www.eneos.us/product/model-t-w/
This is what I bought for my Sienna. I haven't had a chance to change the fluid yet though. It's not a multi-vehicle fluid; Eneos specifically says it's for WS applications and they don't list any other applications it can be used in or other specs that it meets. It's not an officially licensed fluid, but I figure that since Eneos designed the fluid specifically for WS applications and nothing else, it should work perfectly fine.

[Linked Image]
 
Originally Posted by exranger06
Originally Posted by Gebo
The only two ATF's that are specifically labeled specifically "WS" are Toyota and Aisin. NOTE...that I am aware of.
27.gif
And since Toyota does NOT license their ATF's I'm betting the Aisin WS is the same as Toyota WS.

Now you're aware of another:
https://www.eneos.us/product/model-t-w/
This is what I bought for my Sienna. I haven't had a chance to change the fluid yet though. It's not a multi-vehicle fluid; Eneos specifically says it's for WS applications and they don't list any other applications it can be used in or other specs that it meets. It's not an officially licensed fluid, but I figure that since Eneos designed the fluid specifically for WS applications and nothing else, it should work perfectly fine.

[Linked Image]



Like I posted, I know with no other fluid this labeled WS or T-IV. This fluid is label TW.
grin.gif
 
Since a list compilation of seeming wannabee but all currently unproven WS "clones" including aforementioned Aisin "WS", Beck Arnley has a specific WS "Type" ATF too. https://www.beckarnley.com/parts/fluids/transmission-dual-clutch/atf-ws.html Is it identical to Toyota WS ATF? Like all the others, currently unknown. However similar to the DW1 "clone" analogy, the brand recognition and advertised label wording may inspire more confidence 'for some'.

One thing they all seem to have in common is a Kinematic viscosity in 5.5 to 6 cSt range. So whether full synthetic or semi synthetic they are low viscosity, which is the same as MaxLife Full Synthetic MV and Castrol Full Synthetic MV as examples. Personally that being the case, it would be logical the full synthetic product would be superior.
 
XOM exclusively manufactures the T fluids for grand old days.
IMO all others are just "meet spec" fluids, although I have been wrong many a time!!
 
Originally Posted by quint
I've been using Maxlife in multiple WS spec'd Toyotas for years and all of them have way north of 100,000+ miles. Lots of hand wringing on this site about WS and I've never understood why, there is nothing amazing about this spec at all.

I don't think anyone's saying it's amazing, just that it's different enough to not really be reasonably compatible with a multi-spec fluid like Max Life.
 
Originally Posted by Bottom_Feeder
Originally Posted by quint
I've been using Maxlife in multiple WS spec'd Toyotas for years and all of them have way north of 100,000+ miles. Lots of hand wringing on this site about WS and I've never understood why, there is nothing amazing about this spec at all.

I don't think anyone's saying it's amazing, just that it's different enough to not really be reasonably compatible with a multi-spec fluid like Max Life.

Maxlife works in ZF transmissions good. It will work in Toyota too.
I am not sure that Toyota has a specification at all.
 
Originally Posted by blupupher
If you are wanting to use "factory" fluid, then Toyota WS is your only option.

There are several licensed "official" WS fluids out there (Idemitsu, Enenos, Ravenol, Aisin). These WS licensed fluids are all the same as the Toyota fluid, but not "factory".

The many other WS compatible fluids (Maxlife, Mag 1, Pentosin and pretty much any Dex VI/Merc LV fluid out there) work well, but are not licenesed (most likely because of cost of license).

_____________________________________________________

2018 Hyundai Santa Fe: Delo XLE 10W-30, OEM Filter, 3,000 mile OCI
2012 Scion xB: QSUD 5W-20, CarQuest Blue, 5,000 mile OCI
2007 Saturn Vue: Synpower 5w-30, Ecogard Synthetic, OLM
2002 Ford F150: Magnatec 5W-20, Bosch Distance +, 1 year OCI
1994 Honda VT1100c: Peak 15W-40, Bosch Distance +, 1 year OCI

Cost of getting approval is minuscule, but I highly doubt WS is specification in the first place.
 
Toyota ws is one of the worst fluids on erf as far as what they say it is versus what you pay for. Lifetime fluids that are pitch black at 30k miles and shear way down? I used Redline d6 and did a double flush on a rav 4 still light purple on the stick (7 qrts total), Im thinking I will do one more to get a decent shade of red. Nothing wrong with the transmsion at 30k + miles, just had dark black fluid. Still works just fine, no issues with d6 here. It doesn't have to be redline, I'm sure amsoil atf in the cSt 6 range will work as good. VOA's show WS to be low calcium, Redline d6 as well. So if the trans calls for ws, they must not be worried about long term use of low calcium fluids. I'm not sure why the fluid gets so black so fast, I wonder if it is just black clutch material in those transmisions instead of the usual yellow in most other transmisions, dunno for sure just a guess. I do wonder if the ester/pao base fluid will do a better job, time will tell. Redline says it starts at 6.4 and will not go below 6.1 cSt, if true that would be ideal. I've seen amsoil atf also have near zero shear in a long interval. Maybe the reason the oil is so black so fast is the ws shear leaving no protection between clutch packs, again dunno? Possibly the transmision will turn redline or amsoil pitch black in 30k miles? Possible, I can't say for sure, as I only have 5k miles on the flush, time will answer that one, maybe someone else has long term use with amsoil or redline or other then WS as a gauge.
 
Originally Posted by burla
... I'm not sure why the fluid gets so black so fast, I wonder if it is just black clutch material in those transmisions instead of the usual yellow in most other transmisions, dunno for sure just a guess. ... Maybe the reason the oil is so black so fast is the ws shear leaving no protection between clutch packs, again dunno? ...
That doesn't seem likely, considering WS also turns black in new Prius transmissions, which contain no clutches, brakes, synchronizers, or any other sort of friction material. I've read, but forget, the chemical explanation why. Reportedly, if the WS is replaced, the new fill doesn't get as dark as quickly. I changed mine once, using genuine WS, but haven't looked since then.
 
Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by burla
... I'm not sure why the fluid gets so black so fast, I wonder if it is just black clutch material in those transmisions instead of the usual yellow in most other transmisions, dunno for sure just a guess. ... Maybe the reason the oil is so black so fast is the ws shear leaving no protection between clutch packs, again dunno? ...
That doesn't seem likely, considering WS also turns black in new Prius transmissions, which contain no clutches, brakes, synchronizers, or any other sort of friction material. I've read, but forget, the chemical explanation why. Reportedly, if the WS is replaced, the new fill doesn't get as dark as quickly. I changed mine once, using genuine WS, but haven't looked since then.



For MERCON LV the dye causes the black color change. It looks terrible but it is far from burnt by the results of the smell test.
 
Originally Posted by grjr
Has anyone here used Aisin WS to replace Toyota WS? I'm assuming it's the exact same fluid since Toyota owns most of Aisin AFAIK. I have a used 2011 Sienna with a U660E automatic and have done a drain and fill @ 70,342 miles with about 2.5 quarts of original Toyota WS. It is likely the first time any of the ATF has been replaced since there are no signs that the fluid has been serviced before. The fluid came out fairly dark so I plan on doing additional drain and fills but the Toyota WS is expensive at $10.01/qt. I have some Aisin WS ordered which cost $7.31/qt so I could save some money doing additional drain and fills. Not interested in changing the fluid out with anything other than "factory" fluids so please don't mention Valvoline....


I called Aisin and emailed them last week after seeing your question. I was very curious.

Aisin from California called me back this afternoon concerning my question as to whether the Aison WS and T-IV were the same as Toyota WS and T-IV.

The Aisin Rep told me that Aisin WS and T-IV were the exact same formulation as the Toyota WS and T-IV.
 
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