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Carbon - Soot #5112072
05/22/19 08:07 AM
05/22/19 08:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,887
Texas
WyrTwister Offline OP
WyrTwister  Offline OP

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,887
Texas
Most of us have read the reason oil in diesel engines quickly turns dark / black is from soot .

I have also read the soot is abrasive . However graphite is sometimes used as a lubricant . Can some one please explain the difference ?

Also , is the soot to " fine " to be captured / trapped by the oil filter ?

Also , this is / may be applicable , to a much smaller degree in gasoline engines .

Thanks , :-)


Wyr
God bless
Re: Carbon - Soot [Re: WyrTwister] #5112093
05/22/19 08:24 AM
05/22/19 08:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,073
Pennsylvania
Boomer Offline
Boomer  Offline

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,073
Pennsylvania
One reason can be the structure of the carbon. Graphite, a lubricating form of carbon, is plate like in structure due to the nature of the double bonds between the carbon atoms. Regular carbon (ie a soot particle) has mainly all single bonds and can be hard and angular. Remember that a diamond is very pure carbon in this state with no impurities and we all know how hard diamonds are.


2013 VW Passat TDI SE, 65,100 miles Castrol Professional VW507 5W-30
2017 VW Golf All Track 21,170 miles Castrol Professional VW505 5W-40
Re: Carbon - Soot [Re: Boomer] #5112100
05/22/19 08:27 AM
05/22/19 08:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,467
Upper Midwest
kschachn Online content
kschachn  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,467
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted by Boomer
One reason can be the structure of the carbon. Graphite, a lubricating form of carbon, is plate like in structure due to the nature of the double bonds between the carbon atoms. Regular carbon (ie a soot particle) has mainly all single bonds and can be hard and angular. Remember that a diamond is very pure carbon in this state with no impurities and we all know how hard diamonds are.

Right, but the hardness of diamond isn't really related to the purity, it is because of the three-dimensional structure of four covalent bonds between each atom. Graphite would essentially be quite strong in the plane if you could stress it like that.


1994 BMW 530i, 242K
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Re: Carbon - Soot [Re: WyrTwister] #5112101
05/22/19 08:28 AM
05/22/19 08:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 358
Newport News, VA
sdowney717 Offline
sdowney717  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 358
Newport News, VA
Soot is not abrasive unless it gets bigger, as long as its 1/10 micron its ok and has not been allowed to clump together by depleted oil additives. Otherwise diesel engines would completely wear out fast as they make a lot of soot. Soot is really small, too small to easily filter out from oil. I dont like unrestrained soot in my oil so I added a roll of toilet paper filter to my Dodge ram diesel 2005 truck. I started that thread in the bypass filter section. Even that TP will not remove small soot particles, but it will help.

Re: Carbon - Soot [Re: WyrTwister] #5112128
05/22/19 08:49 AM
05/22/19 08:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,887
Texas
WyrTwister Offline OP
WyrTwister  Offline OP

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,887
Texas
Correct or not . I do not know .

But I once read that particles smaller than a certain size , do not hurt in engine oil ? It said it acts as a " polish " ?


Wyr
God bless
Re: Carbon - Soot [Re: WyrTwister] #5112150
05/22/19 09:12 AM
05/22/19 09:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 4,672
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 4,672
MN
Organic chemistry. example: All carbon are the buckyballs, a form of carbon that is made up of 60 atoms and shaped like a hollow soccer ball. Carbon molecules can get really weird, with special shapes, kind of like constructing them out of Tinker Toys, ya know?

[Linked Image]

Re: Carbon - Soot [Re: sdowney717] #5112153
05/22/19 09:14 AM
05/22/19 09:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 142
CO
UberArchetype Offline
UberArchetype  Offline

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 142
CO
Originally Posted by sdowney717
...I added a roll of toilet paper filter to my Dodge ram diesel 2005 truck.

Better filtration is one way to avoid accelerated diesel engine wear. High-density depth filters, centrifuges and gravity are the only 3 ways I am aware of to remove soot from engine oil. The oil itself and the oil change cycle is typically the only thing protecting a diesel from soot-induced wear. If you are relying only on oil changes, I would recommend establishing a baseline OCI schedule with oil analysis to determine where your soot red zone is. Typically short OCIs with a good quality diesel-rated lube will be worry-free in most consumer applications. Severe service (towing, etc.) might be another story.

Re: Carbon - Soot [Re: sdowney717] #5112186
05/22/19 09:35 AM
05/22/19 09:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,977
1/2 hr N.E. of Detroit
Triple_Se7en Offline
Triple_Se7en  Offline

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,977
1/2 hr N.E. of Detroit
Originally Posted by sdowney717
...........oil so I added a roll of toilet paper filter to my Dodge ram diesel 2005 truck. I started that thread in the bypass filter section. Even that TP will not remove small soot particles, but it will help.


I'll bet it was Charmin 3-4-ply and not Scotts 1000 one-ply.


19 Hyundai SantaFe 2.4GDI Castrol Edge 5w30 / NAPA Mann-Hummel filter / 6oz Liqui-Moly Treatment
04 Colorado 3.5 Castrol Edge 0W40 Euro & K&N filter
03 Malibu 3.1 QS / Valv Syn 5w30 mix Fram EG filter
Re: Carbon - Soot [Re: WyrTwister] #5112219
05/22/19 10:04 AM
05/22/19 10:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 4,672
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 4,672
MN
Both Gasoline Direct Injection engines and of course Diesel engines produce soot in the oil.
"Soot reduces the effectiveness of anti-wear additives and its effect on wear depends upon the characteristics of the particles and agglomerates of soot. Abrasive wear occurs and wear scar width closely matches the primary particle size. Oil thickening was found to enhance timing chain elongation due to abrasive action of soot on pins and bushing."
---- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X15000432
[Linked Image]

Re: Carbon - Soot [Re: oil_film_movies] #5113299
05/23/19 09:58 AM
05/23/19 09:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 142
CO
UberArchetype Offline
UberArchetype  Offline

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 142
CO
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Both Gasoline Direct Injection engines and of course Diesel engines produce soot in the oil.

True. But diesels put an order of magnitude greater amount of it in the oil - even more if tuned hot.

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