2019 - 502/505 is dead in US

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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
@oil_film_movies and @The Critic: 508 being available on the shelves = on the shelves at WM, AAP oil change special, etc for $25/5qt.
Go mail order. Amazon brought me a sealed box of Eneos a while back in 2 days, free shipping. Easier than being emotionally wedded to "gotta be on a shelf".

Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
@oil_film_moves, most of the engines on that list were developed for 3.5 HTHS. It's safe to say that's what's optimum and most people aren't going to bother with a couple % etc fuel economy.
It's twice what you say. ... Going from HTHS 2.7 ---> 3.5 means 4% difference in power and fuel economy. ... Over a lifetime of 200,000 miles, that means about $1,000 more in your pocket & more peak power available. For that, there might be about 5%-10% difference in iron wear. Very little difference in wear.

The ONLY time I can think of when you need to go up about +0.5 in HTHS is when you are racing or towing, or have known fuel dilution problems. Otherwise, it actually makes more sense to go with the manufacturer's HTHS recommendation in the Owner's Manual. .... Imagine that, trusting the maker's engineers for this !!!
beer3.gif


Only problem with your thinking is that EA888 is built around heavy oils, and that they are STILL running on VW504.00/507.00 STRICTLY in Europe. Only reason why VW508.00/509.00 is recommended in US is CAFE.
If I was buying brand new VW with that oil in, I would tell them right there in dealership to switch to VW504.00/507.00 or VW502.00 before I take out car.

Exactly.
 
Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
@oil_film_movies and @The Critic: 508 being available on the shelves = on the shelves at WM, AAP oil change special, etc for $25/5qt.
Go mail order. Amazon brought me a sealed box of Eneos a while back in 2 days, free shipping. Easier than being emotionally wedded to "gotta be on a shelf".

Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
@oil_film_moves, most of the engines on that list were developed for 3.5 HTHS. It's safe to say that's what's optimum and most people aren't going to bother with a couple % etc fuel economy.
It's twice what you say. ... Going from HTHS 2.7 ---> 3.5 means 4% difference in power and fuel economy. ... Over a lifetime of 200,000 miles, that means about $1,000 more in your pocket & more peak power available. For that, there might be about 5%-10% difference in iron wear. Very little difference in wear.

The ONLY time I can think of when you need to go up about +0.5 in HTHS is when you are racing or towing, or have known fuel dilution problems. Otherwise, it actually makes more sense to go with the manufacturer's HTHS recommendation in the Owner's Manual. .... Imagine that, trusting the maker's engineers for this !!!
beer3.gif


Only problem with your thinking is that EA888 is built around heavy oils, and that they are STILL running on VW504.00/507.00 STRICTLY in Europe. Only reason why VW508.00/509.00 is recommended in US is CAFE.
If I was buying brand new VW with that oil in, I would tell them right there in dealership to switch to VW504.00/507.00 or VW502.00 before I take out car.

Exactly.




Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
@oil_film_movies and @The Critic: 508 being available on the shelves = on the shelves at WM, AAP oil change special, etc for $25/5qt.
Go mail order. Amazon brought me a sealed box of Eneos a while back in 2 days, free shipping. Easier than being emotionally wedded to "gotta be on a shelf".

Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
@oil_film_moves, most of the engines on that list were developed for 3.5 HTHS. It's safe to say that's what's optimum and most people aren't going to bother with a couple % etc fuel economy.
It's twice what you say. ... Going from HTHS 2.7 ---> 3.5 means 4% difference in power and fuel economy. ... Over a lifetime of 200,000 miles, that means about $1,000 more in your pocket & more peak power available. For that, there might be about 5%-10% difference in iron wear. Very little difference in wear.

The ONLY time I can think of when you need to go up about +0.5 in HTHS is when you are racing or towing, or have known fuel dilution problems. Otherwise, it actually makes more sense to go with the manufacturer's HTHS recommendation in the Owner's Manual. .... Imagine that, trusting the maker's engineers for this !!!
beer3.gif


Only problem with your thinking is that EA888 is built around heavy oils, and that they are STILL running on VW504.00/507.00 STRICTLY in Europe. Only reason why VW508.00/509.00 is recommended in US is CAFE.
If I was buying brand new VW with that oil in, I would tell them right there in dealership to switch to VW504.00/507.00 or VW502.00 before I take out car.


Well the EA888 Gen3B is essentially a different engine (new, lighter block). To only know the why for sure is to be able to compare the average duty cycle in Western Europe vs the US. Do the US cars have a longer or shorter OCI? Do the US cars have lower or higher average speeds? More or less urban miles? etc etc.

I suspect the vast number of EA888 (Audi/VW) are in leased vehicles so they're basically around-town vehicles. I'm not sure a 3.5 HTHS oil is warranted there.
 
504/507 is still used in Europe due to the introduction of OPF's which requires the Low SAPS to maintain the particulate filter.

Just wait until 508.00 standard is revised to become a Low SAPS oil before ICE's are phased out completely by VW.
 
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
504/507 is still used in Europe due to the introduction of OPF's which requires the Low SAPS to maintain the particulate filter.

Just wait until 508.00 standard is revised to become a Low SAPS oil before ICE's are phased out completely by VW.


There you have it. Completely forgot about that.
 
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
504/507 is still used in Europe due to the introduction of OPF's which requires the Low SAPS to maintain the particulate filter.

Just wait until 508.00 standard is revised to become a Low SAPS oil before ICE's are phased out completely by VW.

Other manufacturers are using HTHS 3.5 and above although they have low-SAPS "lighter" oils (BMW).
Going aways with ICE will happen, but not so fast.
However, that does not have anything to do with the fact that VW basically recommends light oil for an engine that is developed around heavy oils.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
504/507 is still used in Europe due to the introduction of OPF's which requires the Low SAPS to maintain the particulate filter.

Just wait until 508.00 standard is revised to become a Low SAPS oil before ICE's are phased out completely by VW.

Other manufacturers are using HTHS 3.5 and above although they have low-SAPS "lighter" oils (BMW).
Going aways with ICE will happen, but not so fast.
However, that does not have anything to do with the fact that VW basically recommends light oil for an engine that is developed around heavy oils.



They changed the oil pump to a dual stage and also changed the cam phasers. It seems they are more concerned about volume of oil opposed to higher viscosity. Not to mention the driving people do in USA is much lower speed and also the OCI is half compared to Europe.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
504/507 is still used in Europe due to the introduction of OPF's which requires the Low SAPS to maintain the particulate filter.

Just wait until 508.00 standard is revised to become a Low SAPS oil before ICE's are phased out completely by VW.

Other manufacturers are using HTHS 3.5 and above although they have low-SAPS "lighter" oils (BMW).
Going aways with ICE will happen, but not so fast.
However, that does not have anything to do with the fact that VW basically recommends light oil for an engine that is developed around heavy oils.


VW's plan is to phase out Internal Combustion engines starting in 2026.

The Budack's were developed around 508.00 specification. But, 2019's have gone to 504.00 & 0w30 as a requirement for the R's. So the "heavier, but lower SAPS" is still used in the US.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
504/507 is still used in Europe due to the introduction of OPF's which requires the Low SAPS to maintain the particulate filter.

Just wait until 508.00 standard is revised to become a Low SAPS oil before ICE's are phased out completely by VW.

Other manufacturers are using HTHS 3.5 and above although they have low-SAPS "lighter" oils (BMW).
Going aways with ICE will happen, but not so fast.
However, that does not have anything to do with the fact that VW basically recommends light oil for an engine that is developed around heavy oils.



They changed the oil pump to a dual stage and also changed the cam phasers. It seems they are more concerned about volume of oil opposed to higher viscosity. Not to mention the driving people do in USA is much lower speed and also the OCI is half compared to Europe.



The 30,000 km OCI is not a fixed OCI. It is flexible service interval, based on driving habits. It is certainly possible that the oil life monitor will tell a driver to change the oil at 16,000 km or sooner, especially a driver in an urban area. Also potentially disappearing from the Autobahn is unlimited speed limit zones, due to climate change concerns, which would bring their average freeway speeds more in-line with the US.
 
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
504/507 is still used in Europe due to the introduction of OPF's which requires the Low SAPS to maintain the particulate filter.

Just wait until 508.00 standard is revised to become a Low SAPS oil before ICE's are phased out completely by VW.

Other manufacturers are using HTHS 3.5 and above although they have low-SAPS "lighter" oils (BMW).
Going aways with ICE will happen, but not so fast.
However, that does not have anything to do with the fact that VW basically recommends light oil for an engine that is developed around heavy oils.



They changed the oil pump to a dual stage and also changed the cam phasers. It seems they are more concerned about volume of oil opposed to higher viscosity. Not to mention the driving people do in USA is much lower speed and also the OCI is half compared to Europe.



The 30,000 km OCI is not a fixed OCI. It is flexible service interval, based on driving habits. It is certainly possible that the oil life monitor will tell a driver to change the oil at 16,000 km or sooner, especially a driver in an urban area. Also potentially disappearing from the Autobahn is unlimited speed limit zones, due to climate change concerns, which would bring their average freeway speeds more in-line with the US.


Well that's not really the point. If they spec an oil for USA they know if will (should) only be used for maximum 10k or one year. So perhaps giving up a little HTHS in this scenario is no big deal when they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther. CAFE matters but I'm not convinced it is the whole story.
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by UG_Passat


The 30,000 km OCI is not a fixed OCI. It is flexible service interval, based on driving habits. It is certainly possible that the oil life monitor will tell a driver to change the oil at 16,000 km or sooner, especially a driver in an urban area. Also potentially disappearing from the Autobahn is unlimited speed limit zones, due to climate change concerns, which would bring their average freeway speeds more in-line with the US.


Well that's not really the point. If they spec an oil for USA they know if will (should) only be used for maximum 10k or one year. So perhaps giving up a little HTHS in this scenario is no big deal when they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther. CAFE matters but I'm not convinced it is the whole story.



VW has always spec'd an oil to be used for a max of 10,000 miles, when there was alternative specification with the same HTHS requirement that is suitable for their Flexible Service Interval.

In Europe, prior to 2019, with the introduction of OPF's, fixed interval cars used 502.00. Flex intervals used 504.00, WITHOUT giving up on HTHS.

Even before 504/507 standard, VW's flex intervals were 503/506 standard, with the same HTHS requirement (except 506.01, which was a 0w30 with 2.6 to 3.5 HTHS)

Prior to 2019, 502.00 was specified even though they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther, without giving up on HTHS.

Also as pointed out earlier, 508.00 SAP's is not suitable for the OPF's now installed on 2019 Cars, which 504.00 has a lower limit on SAP's than 508.00.

Keep in mind though, 504/507 standard was initially meant to supercede both fixed intervals (502/505) and flex service intervals (503/506) into a single standard. And, 0w30 504.00 is being spec'd on USA 2019 Golf R's, with a fixed interval with the ability to go flexible intervals in Europe with the OPF.

[Linked Image]

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...p=113338953&viewfull=1#post113338953
 
Going to the 508 standard should theoretically give 4% better fuel economy.

But comparing EPA estimates for the GTI:
city/highway/combined/CO2 grams per mile
2018 DSG: 24/32/27/322
2019 7-speed DSG: 25/31/27/325

2018 6MT: 25/33/28/320
2019 6MT: 24/32/27/326

But it seems like it doesn't. It can be worse, since if you compared apples to apples, you see this difference in the 6-speed manual, as the EPA estimates are worse in 2019 compared to the 2018.
 
Maybe the 508 recommendation is used to keep the MPGs more inline with 2018 EPA results since other (drivetrain, engine) changes to the 2019s would have made it even worse if still relying on previous specs?
 
The CAFE requirement makes sense on the regular Golf, as for 2019, it gets the 1.4L engine, instead of the 1.8L
2019 1.4TSI:
Tiptronic: 29/37/32
5MT: 29/37/32

2018 1.8TSI:
Tiptronic: 24/33/28
5MT: 25/34/29
 
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by UG_Passat


The 30,000 km OCI is not a fixed OCI. It is flexible service interval, based on driving habits. It is certainly possible that the oil life monitor will tell a driver to change the oil at 16,000 km or sooner, especially a driver in an urban area. Also potentially disappearing from the Autobahn is unlimited speed limit zones, due to climate change concerns, which would bring their average freeway speeds more in-line with the US.


Well that's not really the point. If they spec an oil for USA they know if will (should) only be used for maximum 10k or one year. So perhaps giving up a little HTHS in this scenario is no big deal when they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther. CAFE matters but I'm not convinced it is the whole story.



VW has always spec'd an oil to be used for a max of 10,000 miles, when there was alternative specification with the same HTHS requirement that is suitable for their Flexible Service Interval.

In Europe, prior to 2019, with the introduction of OPF's, fixed interval cars used 502.00. Flex intervals used 504.00, WITHOUT giving up on HTHS.

Even before 504/507 standard, VW's flex intervals were 503/506 standard, with the same HTHS requirement (except 506.01, which was a 0w30 with 2.6 to 3.5 HTHS)

Prior to 2019, 502.00 was specified even though they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther, without giving up on HTHS.

Also as pointed out earlier, 508.00 SAP's is not suitable for the OPF's now installed on 2019 Cars, which 504.00 has a lower limit on SAP's than 508.00.

Keep in mind though, 504/507 standard was initially meant to supercede both fixed intervals (502/505) and flex service intervals (503/506) into a single standard. And, 0w30 504.00 is being spec'd on USA 2019 Golf R's, with a fixed interval with the ability to go flexible intervals in Europe with the OPF.

[Linked Image]

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...p=113338953&viewfull=1#post113338953



Yes, I realize this. However, until recently in the USA there was no alternative to 502 with similar HTHS that could be used. Even if they wanted to extend OCI, it was not possible with US gasoline. Now that lower sulfur gasoline is here they have switched cars with 3.5 HTHS requirement to 504 and 502 is essentially obsolete.

I'm sure the 508 was designed because they needed to increase mileage overall. However unless someone is tracking the car or towing etc, it likely makes little to no difference in terms of engine longevity when compared to using 504 or 502 instead.
 
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
The CAFE requirement makes sense on the regular Golf, as for 2019, it gets the 1.4L engine, instead of the 1.8L
2019 1.4TSI:
Tiptronic: 29/37/32
5MT: 29/37/32

2018 1.8TSI:
Tiptronic: 24/33/28
5MT: 25/34/29



CAFE aside, they need to remain competitive too. The Japanese especially are creating very fuel efficient engines. It's a hard sell when your car gets 15-20% worse mileage.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
@oil_film_movies and @The Critic: 508 being available on the shelves = on the shelves at WM, AAP oil change special, etc for $25/5qt.
Go mail order. Amazon brought me a sealed box of Eneos a while back in 2 days, free shipping. Easier than being emotionally wedded to "gotta be on a shelf".

Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
@oil_film_moves, most of the engines on that list were developed for 3.5 HTHS. It's safe to say that's what's optimum and most people aren't going to bother with a couple % etc fuel economy.
It's twice what you say. ... Going from HTHS 2.7 ---> 3.5 means 4% difference in power and fuel economy. ... Over a lifetime of 200,000 miles, that means about $1,000 more in your pocket & more peak power available. For that, there might be about 5%-10% difference in iron wear. Very little difference in wear.

The ONLY time I can think of when you need to go up about +0.5 in HTHS is when you are racing or towing, or have known fuel dilution problems. Otherwise, it actually makes more sense to go with the manufacturer's HTHS recommendation in the Owner's Manual. .... Imagine that, trusting the maker's engineers for this !!!
beer3.gif


Only problem with your thinking is that EA888 is built around heavy oils, and that they are STILL running on VW504.00/507.00 STRICTLY in Europe. Only reason why VW508.00/509.00 is recommended in US is CAFE.
If I was buying brand new VW with that oil in, I would tell them right there in dealership to switch to VW504.00/507.00 or VW502.00 before I take out car.



This,

Couple with a History of Timing component wear issues on VW 2.0T engines sticking with a 3.5 HTHS oil is in my opinion the best route.

I remember 1.8T VW engines wearing cam lobes in the US from people using regular API 5w30 in the early 2000s.

I would run the higher vis Euro spec in a VW/Audi
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
The CAFE requirement makes sense on the regular Golf, as for 2019, it gets the 1.4L engine, instead of the 1.8L
2019 1.4TSI:
Tiptronic: 29/37/32
5MT: 29/37/32

2018 1.8TSI:
Tiptronic: 24/33/28
5MT: 25/34/29



CAFE aside, they need to remain competitive too. The Japanese especially are creating very fuel efficient engines. It's a hard sell when your car gets 15-20% worse mileage.

Japanese are running CVT's, and their customer base does not care if there is actual hair dryer under the hood.
Europeans first have to meet demands of their own market, which is more demanding when it comes to performance.
 
Europe is not teeming with "high Performance" autobahn rockets in the numbers some here would have the masses believe...far from it.
 
Originally Posted by wemay
Europe is not teeming with "high Performance" autobahn rockets like some here would have the masses believe...far from it.

What is high performance?
 
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