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Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: Jimmy_Russells] #5111464 05/21/19 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by UG_Passat


The 30,000 km OCI is not a fixed OCI. It is flexible service interval, based on driving habits. It is certainly possible that the oil life monitor will tell a driver to change the oil at 16,000 km or sooner, especially a driver in an urban area. Also potentially disappearing from the Autobahn is unlimited speed limit zones, due to climate change concerns, which would bring their average freeway speeds more in-line with the US.


Well that's not really the point. If they spec an oil for USA they know if will (should) only be used for maximum 10k or one year. So perhaps giving up a little HTHS in this scenario is no big deal when they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther. CAFE matters but I'm not convinced it is the whole story.



VW has always spec'd an oil to be used for a max of 10,000 miles, when there was alternative specification with the same HTHS requirement that is suitable for their Flexible Service Interval.

In Europe, prior to 2019, with the introduction of OPF's, fixed interval cars used 502.00. Flex intervals used 504.00, WITHOUT giving up on HTHS.

Even before 504/507 standard, VW's flex intervals were 503/506 standard, with the same HTHS requirement (except 506.01, which was a 0w30 with 2.6 to 3.5 HTHS)

Prior to 2019, 502.00 was specified even though they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther, without giving up on HTHS.

Also as pointed out earlier, 508.00 SAP's is not suitable for the OPF's now installed on 2019 Cars, which 504.00 has a lower limit on SAP's than 508.00.

Keep in mind though, 504/507 standard was initially meant to supercede both fixed intervals (502/505) and flex service intervals (503/506) into a single standard. And, 0w30 504.00 is being spec'd on USA 2019 Golf R's, with a fixed interval with the ability to go flexible intervals in Europe with the OPF.

[Linked Image]
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...p=113338953&viewfull=1#post113338953


2016 VW Tiguan|APR Stage 1|Neuspeed P-Flo|Osram CBI|Redline 5w30
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: vinu_neuro] #5111527 05/21/19 04:46 PM
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Going to the 508 standard should theoretically give 4% better fuel economy.

But comparing EPA estimates for the GTI:
city/highway/combined/CO2 grams per mile
2018 DSG: 24/32/27/322
2019 7-speed DSG: 25/31/27/325

2018 6MT: 25/33/28/320
2019 6MT: 24/32/27/326

But it seems like it doesn't. It can be worse, since if you compared apples to apples, you see this difference in the 6-speed manual, as the EPA estimates are worse in 2019 compared to the 2018.


2016 VW Tiguan|APR Stage 1|Neuspeed P-Flo|Osram CBI|Redline 5w30
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: vinu_neuro] #5111530 05/21/19 04:50 PM
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Maybe the 508 recommendation is used to keep the MPGs more inline with 2018 EPA results since other (drivetrain, engine) changes to the 2019s would have made it even worse if still relying on previous specs?


2018 KIA Sportage LX 2.4 AWD:
EDGE 5W30, PH9688

2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T:
M1HM 10W30, ULTRA XG9688
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: vinu_neuro] #5111543 05/21/19 05:05 PM
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The CAFE requirement makes sense on the regular Golf, as for 2019, it gets the 1.4L engine, instead of the 1.8L
2019 1.4TSI:
Tiptronic: 29/37/32
5MT: 29/37/32

2018 1.8TSI:
Tiptronic: 24/33/28
5MT: 25/34/29


2016 VW Tiguan|APR Stage 1|Neuspeed P-Flo|Osram CBI|Redline 5w30
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: UG_Passat] #5111555 05/21/19 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by UG_Passat
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by UG_Passat


The 30,000 km OCI is not a fixed OCI. It is flexible service interval, based on driving habits. It is certainly possible that the oil life monitor will tell a driver to change the oil at 16,000 km or sooner, especially a driver in an urban area. Also potentially disappearing from the Autobahn is unlimited speed limit zones, due to climate change concerns, which would bring their average freeway speeds more in-line with the US.


Well that's not really the point. If they spec an oil for USA they know if will (should) only be used for maximum 10k or one year. So perhaps giving up a little HTHS in this scenario is no big deal when they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther. CAFE matters but I'm not convinced it is the whole story.



VW has always spec'd an oil to be used for a max of 10,000 miles, when there was alternative specification with the same HTHS requirement that is suitable for their Flexible Service Interval.

In Europe, prior to 2019, with the introduction of OPF's, fixed interval cars used 502.00. Flex intervals used 504.00, WITHOUT giving up on HTHS.

Even before 504/507 standard, VW's flex intervals were 503/506 standard, with the same HTHS requirement (except 506.01, which was a 0w30 with 2.6 to 3.5 HTHS)

Prior to 2019, 502.00 was specified even though they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther, without giving up on HTHS.

Also as pointed out earlier, 508.00 SAP's is not suitable for the OPF's now installed on 2019 Cars, which 504.00 has a lower limit on SAP's than 508.00.

Keep in mind though, 504/507 standard was initially meant to supercede both fixed intervals (502/505) and flex service intervals (503/506) into a single standard. And, 0w30 504.00 is being spec'd on USA 2019 Golf R's, with a fixed interval with the ability to go flexible intervals in Europe with the OPF.

[Linked Image]
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...p=113338953&viewfull=1#post113338953



Yes, I realize this. However, until recently in the USA there was no alternative to 502 with similar HTHS that could be used. Even if they wanted to extend OCI, it was not possible with US gasoline. Now that lower sulfur gasoline is here they have switched cars with 3.5 HTHS requirement to 504 and 502 is essentially obsolete.

I'm sure the 508 was designed because they needed to increase mileage overall. However unless someone is tracking the car or towing etc, it likely makes little to no difference in terms of engine longevity when compared to using 504 or 502 instead.

Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: UG_Passat] #5111557 05/21/19 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by UG_Passat
The CAFE requirement makes sense on the regular Golf, as for 2019, it gets the 1.4L engine, instead of the 1.8L
2019 1.4TSI:
Tiptronic: 29/37/32
5MT: 29/37/32

2018 1.8TSI:
Tiptronic: 24/33/28
5MT: 25/34/29



CAFE aside, they need to remain competitive too. The Japanese especially are creating very fuel efficient engines. It's a hard sell when your car gets 15-20% worse mileage.

Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: edyvw] #5111734 05/21/19 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
@oil_film_movies and @The Critic: 508 being available on the shelves = on the shelves at WM, AAP oil change special, etc for $25/5qt.
Go mail order. Amazon brought me a sealed box of Eneos a while back in 2 days, free shipping. Easier than being emotionally wedded to "gotta be on a shelf".

Originally Posted by vinu_neuro
@oil_film_moves, most of the engines on that list were developed for 3.5 HTHS. It's safe to say that's what's optimum and most people aren't going to bother with a couple % etc fuel economy.
It's twice what you say. ... Going from HTHS 2.7 ---> 3.5 means 4% difference in power and fuel economy. ... Over a lifetime of 200,000 miles, that means about $1,000 more in your pocket & more peak power available. For that, there might be about 5%-10% difference in iron wear. Very little difference in wear.

The ONLY time I can think of when you need to go up about +0.5 in HTHS is when you are racing or towing, or have known fuel dilution problems. Otherwise, it actually makes more sense to go with the manufacturer's HTHS recommendation in the Owner's Manual. .... Imagine that, trusting the maker's engineers for this !!! beer

Only problem with your thinking is that EA888 is built around heavy oils, and that they are STILL running on VW504.00/507.00 STRICTLY in Europe. Only reason why VW508.00/509.00 is recommended in US is CAFE.
If I was buying brand new VW with that oil in, I would tell them right there in dealership to switch to VW504.00/507.00 or VW502.00 before I take out car.



This,

Couple with a History of Timing component wear issues on VW 2.0T engines sticking with a 3.5 HTHS oil is in my opinion the best route.

I remember 1.8T VW engines wearing cam lobes in the US from people using regular API 5w30 in the early 2000s.

I would run the higher vis Euro spec in a VW/Audi


2008 Silverado Z71 LT 98k Maxlife FS 5w30
2010 Ford Escape 196k QSUD 5w20
2016 Yamaha XSR900 13k, Spectro 10w40, Yamaha Filter.
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: Jimmy_Russells] #5111782 05/21/19 09:11 PM
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edyvw Offline
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Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
The CAFE requirement makes sense on the regular Golf, as for 2019, it gets the 1.4L engine, instead of the 1.8L
2019 1.4TSI:
Tiptronic: 29/37/32
5MT: 29/37/32

2018 1.8TSI:
Tiptronic: 24/33/28
5MT: 25/34/29



CAFE aside, they need to remain competitive too. The Japanese especially are creating very fuel efficient engines. It's a hard sell when your car gets 15-20% worse mileage.

Japanese are running CVT's, and their customer base does not care if there is actual hair dryer under the hood.
Europeans first have to meet demands of their own market, which is more demanding when it comes to performance.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: vinu_neuro] #5111804 05/21/19 09:30 PM
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wemay Offline
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Europe is not teeming with "high Performance" autobahn rockets in the numbers some here would have the masses believe...far from it.


2018 KIA Sportage LX 2.4 AWD:
EDGE 5W30, PH9688

2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T:
M1HM 10W30, ULTRA XG9688
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: wemay] #5111806 05/21/19 09:31 PM
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edyvw Offline
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Originally Posted by wemay
Europe is not teeming with "high Performance" autobahn rockets like some here would have the masses believe...far from it.

What is high performance?


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: edyvw] #5111835 05/21/19 09:57 PM
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Garak Offline
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My observation with German cars is that they may not accelerate like a Viper, but even the most humble ones handle quite well at a good speed. 120 mph was less alarming in my Audi 200 than it was in my Lightning. wink


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: Jimmy_Russells] #5111856 05/21/19 10:33 PM
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UG_Passat Offline
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Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by UG_Passat


The 30,000 km OCI is not a fixed OCI. It is flexible service interval, based on driving habits. It is certainly possible that the oil life monitor will tell a driver to change the oil at 16,000 km or sooner, especially a driver in an urban area. Also potentially disappearing from the Autobahn is unlimited speed limit zones, due to climate change concerns, which would bring their average freeway speeds more in-line with the US.


Well that's not really the point. If they spec an oil for USA they know if will (should) only be used for maximum 10k or one year. So perhaps giving up a little HTHS in this scenario is no big deal when they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther. CAFE matters but I'm not convinced it is the whole story.



VW has always spec'd an oil to be used for a max of 10,000 miles, when there was alternative specification with the same HTHS requirement that is suitable for their Flexible Service Interval.

In Europe, prior to 2019, with the introduction of OPF's, fixed interval cars used 502.00. Flex intervals used 504.00, WITHOUT giving up on HTHS.

Even before 504/507 standard, VW's flex intervals were 503/506 standard, with the same HTHS requirement (except 506.01, which was a 0w30 with 2.6 to 3.5 HTHS)

Prior to 2019, 502.00 was specified even though they know the potential in Europe still exists to go much farther, without giving up on HTHS.

Also as pointed out earlier, 508.00 SAP's is not suitable for the OPF's now installed on 2019 Cars, which 504.00 has a lower limit on SAP's than 508.00.

Keep in mind though, 504/507 standard was initially meant to supercede both fixed intervals (502/505) and flex service intervals (503/506) into a single standard. And, 0w30 504.00 is being spec'd on USA 2019 Golf R's, with a fixed interval with the ability to go flexible intervals in Europe with the OPF.

[Linked Image]
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...p=113338953&viewfull=1#post113338953



Yes, I realize this. However, until recently in the USA there was no alternative to 502 with similar HTHS that could be used. Even if they wanted to extend OCI, it was not possible with US gasoline. Now that lower sulfur gasoline is here they have switched cars with 3.5 HTHS requirement to 504 and 502 is essentially obsolete.

I'm sure the 508 was designed because they needed to increase mileage overall. However unless someone is tracking the car or towing etc, it likely makes little to no difference in terms of engine longevity when compared to using 504 or 502 instead.



Actually, older Mobil 1 0w40 met 503.01, which is a flexible service interval oil, so there was an alternative (before the current FS version that lost some certs). Pretty sure the old GC 0w30 was a 503.01 oil also.

Yes, the 508 was designed to promise the 4% fuel economy, but comparing GTI's from 2018 to 2019, 508.00 according to the EPA fuel economy estimates, isn't proving to be a 4% improvement, it's about equal in the DSG realm, but about a 4% loss when comparing 2018 6MT to a 2019 6MT.

All the Budack's are designed to run 508.00 from the start, so there is no published data point to compare to a 502 or 504 oil.


2016 VW Tiguan|APR Stage 1|Neuspeed P-Flo|Osram CBI|Redline 5w30
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: Garak] #5111864 05/21/19 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Garak
My observation with German cars is that they may not accelerate like a Viper, but even the most humble ones handle quite well at a good speed. 120 mph was less alarming in my Audi 200 than it was in my Lightning. wink


Agree. Which has far less to do with oil specs as opposed to chassis settings.


2018 KIA Sportage LX 2.4 AWD:
EDGE 5W30, PH9688

2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T:
M1HM 10W30, ULTRA XG9688
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: wemay] #5111890 05/21/19 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by Garak
My observation with German cars is that they may not accelerate like a Viper, but even the most humble ones handle quite well at a good speed. 120 mph was less alarming in my Audi 200 than it was in my Lightning. wink


Agree. Which has far less to do with oil specs as opposed to chassis settings.

Thing is that average European driver is driving much smaller engine than average American driver is driving. However, speeds of 100mph for 1.0 turbo engine are very normal occurrence in Europe, while 100mph is far for normal for any vehicle n the US.
There is a reason why 90% of vehicles in Europe (including American and Asian) are running on ACEA A3 or C3 oils.

Last edited by edyvw; 05/21/19 11:50 PM.

15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: 2019 - 502/505 is dead in US [Re: edyvw] #5111906 05/22/19 12:42 AM
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Aside from chassis, the old Audi 200 was certainly set up for speed, and that giant oil cooler was a thing of beauty! wink


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
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