Thoughts on this article?

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I'm not here to give Liqui-moly a plug, but that what they do best! Thats' an additives company that also make good oil.
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Interesting. Given that manufacturers are starting to limit Calcium content for D1G2 and SN+ reasons, I wonder if we'll be able to see an appreciable decrease in engine wear. At least in commercial settings.
 
Anyone know if Chevron Delo 400 15w-40 diesel oil CK rated has this same calcium added to the oil.
As soot is a major component of oil in diesel crankcases, this would seem like a very bad idea for diesel oil.
This oil here
https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en_us/home/products/delo-400-sde-sae-15w-40.html

From the article in first post.

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The research showed that calcium-based dispersants that are added to almost all oils become abrasive they interact with soot in your engine's crankcase.

"The soot by itself is actually lubricious because ... it's basically little nanoparticles of carbon which under normal circumstances would actually be lubricious," Aswath said. "But when you have this calcium phosphate particles embedded in them they actually become much more abrasive."
 
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"But the reality is there are some organic detergent that don't have any calcium in there. They're more expensive to make but if you take a holistic look at it the overall cost or lifecycle of an engine, you probably will recover that cost multiple fold if you spend the money up front in paying a little more for a better detergent in your engine oil."

Organic

Holistic

Probably

I'll have to bring this up the next time I see The Dalai Lama.
 
Originally Posted by sdowney717
http://www.pqiamerica.com/May 2013/chevrondelo.htm

So who is going to tell the oil companies about this?



They already know. Their research and development people know before anything like that gets published.

As consumers, we speak with our dollars. If everyone stopped buying, they will notice.

If all of us stopped buying, how quick will they see that sales dropped?
 
Well, with diesel engines regularly going only 500,000-1 million miles using regular HDEO apparently this wear problem with calcium is a huge problem!
 
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Engine lasts 240k instead of 280k but car falls apart at 200k anyway. Who cares

I have never had a major engine failure in some 50 years of driving, and in my early years I was driving some pretty basic vehicles and knew very little about maintenance. The first car I actually owned, an early 1970s Plymouth Duster with the slant six received nothing but the most basic oil changes every once in awhile at the cheapest available lube shop. Top off oil was whatever was cheapest. I finally got rid of the car with around 140,000 miles on it due to rust and rot, and the failure of the brake system. The engine was still running like a top, and I'm sure the next guy had that thing back on the road for many miles after me. Long story short, in my experience every engine I have every maintained has outlived the rest of the vehicle or was still in good running order when I got rid of it.
 
Quickly looked at it.

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Aswath said an alternative like an all organic detergent could help prolong your engine and also increase the amount of kilometres between oil changes.

Right now there's no incentive for oil formulators or lubrication companies to make an alternative that is better because they tend to be more expensive.

"But the reality is there are some organic detergent that don't have any calcium in there. They're more expensive to make but if you take a holistic look at it the overall cost or lifecycle of an engine, you probably will recover that cost multiple fold if you spend the money up front in paying a little more for a better detergent in your engine oil."


I'll keep on doing what I'm doing. Since the boutique oils don't even offer those type of additives, it will be a long time before any of this becomes available.
 
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I read the article. Of course, the vast majority of properly maintained vehicles go to the junkyard with the engine being the best component in the vehicle. They can say that oil companies are using cheap (I say cost effective) components, but that doesn't change the fact that using specified lubes and intervals serves almost everyone very, very well.

No matter what, some people will pay more for a premium product, and some people will simply never change their oil. There aren't a lot of people out there clamouring for engines to last longer, since that's not a problem for most of us. We also don't do "the most" we can to eke the last bits of wear out of our engines, simply because the extra work or cost isn't worth the insignificant marginal gain. Everyone I suppose could run bypass filtration and be very careful with what's ingested in the first place through the airbox. How much does it really matter?
 
Thats right, I already get 300,000 miles out of an engine with Mobil 1. Everything else on the car is worn out but the engine is fine.
 
Originally Posted by Garak
We also don't do "the most" we can to eke the last bits of wear out of our engines, simply because the extra work or cost isn't worth the insignificant marginal gain. Everyone I suppose could run bypass filtration and be very careful with what's ingested in the first place through the airbox. How much does it really matter?


I suspect 9 out of 10 people who read and/or post on this forum take better care of their engines, than they take care of their bodies. So worried about motor oil, filters, fuel, air, additives, coupons, rebates.......who is eating right, and exercising?
 
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I suspect 9 out of 10 people who read and/or post on this forum take better care of their engines, than they take care of their bodies.

And, probably like a lot of the stuff people do to "take better care of their bodies," what we do to our engines doesn't actually work and might even be worse than just doing the average.

What we need is two BITOG volunteers to purchase identical vehicles and have one maintain the vehicle strictly by whatever the cheapest possible products are that meet the owner's manual, and the other person is allowed to use whatever special BITOG soup and nuts he wants to on the vehicle. Then at 100,000 and 200,000 miles we'll all pitch in and pay for mechanical tear downs and comparisons!

I have a feeling we'd all be converted to buying whatever is cheapest.
 
Originally Posted by AuthorEditor


I have a feeling we'd all be converted to buying whatever is cheapest.


I'm a believer. I still refer to this:

One of the best-kept secrets of the oil industry is that these store brands are actually the same, quality oils that are produced by the major oil companies. The only difference between these products and the major company brands is the name on the container and the price.
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/whi...stone%2f(S(xwgvrd45ikj3j1quo0rvr545))%2f
 
Calcium and magnesium sulfonates, phenates, salicylates, and carboxylates, not phosphates, are the usual detergent compounds in DI packages as one of the deposit control agents..

The article never identified which oils contained calcium phosphates and which oils do not.



Originally Posted by Lubricant Additives Chemistry and Applications
...Alkenylphosphonic and alkenylthiophosphonic acid detergents are only rarely used...
and was not identified for any application.
 
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
The article never identified which oils contained calcium phosphates and which oils do not.

Mola, it's Saskatchewan. The only thing anyone pays attention to here is which oil is on special this week at Canadian Tire so they can do an oil change for under $50. The economics department of the same university should coordinate with this study, and find out why Canadian Tire thinks it's appropriate to have such a markup.

I can assist and maybe do a study and find a number mashing relationship between Canadian Tire regular retail price and base stock quality.
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Here is the actual journal article:

Impact of diesel-engine oil additiv...dation, and wear characteristics of soot
Impact of diesel-engine oil additives-soot interactions on physiochemical, oxidation, and wear characteristics of soot
Kimaya Vyavhare†, Sujay Bagi‡, Mihir Patel§, and Pranesh B. Aswath*â€
†Department of Materials Science and Engineering, University of Texas at Arlington, Arlington, Texas 76019, United States
‡ Department of Mechanical Engineering, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 77 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139, United States
§ Product Development, Chevron Lubricants, San Ramon, California 94583, United States
Energy Fuels, 2019, 33 (5), pp 4515-4530
DOI: 10.1021/acs.energyfuels.8b03841
Publication Date (Web): April 4, 2019
Copyright © 2019 American Chemical Society
*E-mail: [email protected].


The article is about soot-induced wear in diesel engines. It's saying calcium carbonate from the detergent makes the soot particles harder and more abrasive.

PS: It's probably better to change the title of the thread to something more descriptive, such as "Calcium detergents increasing the abrasiveness of the soot particles in diesel-engine oil."
 
Organic detergents: Are these used in lower-ash oils, e.g. those meeting VW 504/507, MB 229.52, etc.?

More practically, if we look at a VOA for one of those oils and see relatively low levels of Ca without relatively high levels of Mg, how safe is it to imagine that that oil uses organic detergents?
 
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