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Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: ZeeOSix] #5110849
05/21/19 06:04 AM
05/21/19 06:04 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,979
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
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dnewton3  Offline
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Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by dnewton3
I have seen no proof whatsoever, nor has anyone here ever shown any evidence, that super-duper lubes and filters are the exclusive means to long equipment life.


Granted, super high efficiency oil bypass filters are primary used in heavy duty diesel engine applications where OCIs are super long, and there have been lots of studies done showing that cleaner oil resulted in less engine wear. I think this was posted by someone here at some point but worth showing again.


Good morning, Zee. Curious where that data is from? What study? Was it a HALT? Can you link the study or the source please? I would like to review it.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5110857
05/21/19 06:13 AM
05/21/19 06:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,604
Elizabethtown, Pa
Al Offline
Al  Offline

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Posts: 18,604
Elizabethtown, Pa
Originally Posted by Patman

True, but even if they charged $15 or $20 (as opposed to the $10 for the Ultra) they could still be popular.

As far as bypass filtration goes, I think the complexity of it scares a lot of people away. Having a simple spin on filter that is super efficient would be more user friendly.

I am not so sure it would work at 15 to 20 bucks Patman. But I am with you. I am required to use premium gasoline and a $3.50 per gallon I would pay $20 for a 10 micron filter in a heartbeat.


Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5110858
05/21/19 06:13 AM
05/21/19 06:13 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,165
Massachusetts
AuthorEditor Offline
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Massachusetts
Logic would indicate that if long-haul trucks benefit from better filtration than all engines would gain some reduction in wear. I don't think that is in dispute. The argument that many of us are making is that the gain is not worth the cost, or any cost, since our engines are already lasting beyond the useful life of the rest of the vehicle. There might be some odd use cases where the gain could be worth paying for extra efficiency. Someone who maybe drives regularly 8-10 hours a day at highway speeds many days of the year, racking up 100,000 miles a year like a trucker. You might want to gain every bit of engine longevity and every bit of oil longevity between OCIs.

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5110903
05/21/19 06:50 AM
05/21/19 06:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 358
Newport News, VA
sdowney717 Offline
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Newport News, VA
Not wanting to read every comment, they have made a better filter.
They are venturi duel element. Having a 'bypass' type element combined with a full flow in the same can. All the oil goes to the engine oil gallery, the diversion takes place inside the filter.
LF9028 and BD7317 fit my Dodge Cummins diesel.

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/s...i%20Combo%20Lube%20Filter%20Brochure.pdf

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/venturi

Last edited by sdowney717; 05/21/19 06:51 AM.
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: dnewton3] #5110936
05/21/19 07:20 AM
05/21/19 07:20 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,835
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline OP
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Patman  Offline OP
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Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted by dnewton3


My Point? You don't need super duper syn lubes or extra premium filters to make an engine last a long time. There is more than one means to an end.

Because contamination is low early in an OCI, then you don't need premium products; "normal" oils and filters will keep the engine clean enough to last a LONG time. If you choose to extend your OCIs as a fiscal savings tool, then syns and BP filtration are important to keep the sump clean for really long OCIs.

I have seen no proof whatsoever, nor has anyone here ever shown any evidence, that super-duper lubes and filters are the exclusive means to long equipment life. The VAST MAJORITY of data shows that wear rates trend down, even out to 15k miles of the OFCI, regardless of what products are used. This is true of every darn engine series I've studied. And there is ZERO correlation that allows us to conclude that low wear is the exclusive result of premium products. Even "normal" oils and filters exhibit this phenomenon. Because both normal products AND premium products both experience the downward trend of wear out to 15k miles, it's clear that neither is the controlling factor of wear. What has been proven to be a controlling factor is the TCB in normal OFCIs.

I have not seen any proof that is credible (in today's applications for normal OFCIs) that proves we need "more" filtration or "better" oils. Your car is FAR, FAR more likely to be totaled in a wreck, or rusted to oblivious, or traded out from sheer boredom, long before the engine dies, as long as you practice a sensible OFCI program with normal products.


So, the reason there's not a mass market filter that's "more" efficient is because it's not needed. It might be wanted, but it's not needed.


Maybe not, but using higher quality synthetic oils and the best filters is something that I PERSONALLY want to do, I still stand by the belief that better oils and better filters cannot hurt, so why not do everything you possible can to give your engine the best chance at living a long life? I treat every car I own as if I'm going to keep it forever, and even when I don't keep them forever, at least the engine is still running as good as new in every way for the entire time I have the car, instead of that engine getting tired and not running it's best as it ages.


2018 Corvette, 12k, M1 ESP Formula 5w30 & NAPA Gold
2006 Civic EX Coupe, 151k, PUP 5w20 & Fram Ultra
2010 BMW 328i X-Drive,116k, GC 0w40 & Fram Ultra

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: dnewton3] #5111141
05/21/19 10:31 AM
05/21/19 10:31 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,835
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline OP
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Patman  Offline OP
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Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted by dnewton3


I have seen no proof whatsoever, nor has anyone here ever shown any evidence, that super-duper lubes and filters are the exclusive means to long equipment life.



Also, let’s put this another way. Everyone’s driving habits, climate and different engines will react differently. What worked in the past to get to that higher mileage with the cheaper oils and filters might not work today with higher compression direct injected engines (many of them with forced induction too, adding even more stress). If I’m wrong my only problem is that I’ve spent too much money on oil and filters. If you’re wrong, you’ll end up spending way more money rebuilding an engine sooner than otherwise necessary. That’s a gamble I’m not willing to take.

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: dnewton3] #5111323
05/21/19 01:17 PM
05/21/19 01:17 PM
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Posts: 21,155
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline

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Posts: 21,155
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Originally Posted by dnewton3
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by dnewton3
I have seen no proof whatsoever, nor has anyone here ever shown any evidence, that super-duper lubes and filters are the exclusive means to long equipment life.


Granted, super high efficiency oil bypass filters are primary used in heavy duty diesel engine applications where OCIs are super long, and there have been lots of studies done showing that cleaner oil resulted in less engine wear. I think this was posted by someone here at some point but worth showing again.


Good morning, Zee. Curious where that data is from? What study? Was it a HALT? Can you link the study or the source please? I would like to review it.


That was posted in another thread quite a while ago, not sure which one. I'll dig around on my computer and see if I can find the source of the data.

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5111350
05/21/19 02:01 PM
05/21/19 02:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 21,155
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline

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Posts: 21,155
PNW
dnewton - I found the source. See the attached PDF file (the internet link is no longer alive). I saved the PDF back when that thread was going on back in 2017. Member Ducked summarized the info in Section 4.1 of the paper by the Pall Corporation. Of course it's a diesel engine focused paper, but IMO gives good general info on engine wear vs oil cleanliness.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...62/re-particle-size-question#Post4597662

Attached PDF document
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5113121
05/23/19 06:46 AM
05/23/19 06:46 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,979
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
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Indianapolis, IN
Thanks Zee - I'll try to read it this weekend. Swamped at work this week.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5113136
05/23/19 06:54 AM
05/23/19 06:54 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,979
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
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Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted by Patman
Maybe not, but using higher quality synthetic oils and the best filters is something that I PERSONALLY want to do, I still stand by the belief that better oils and better filters cannot hurt, so why not do everything you possible can to give your engine the best chance at living a long life? I treat every car I own as if I'm going to keep it forever, and even when I don't keep them forever, at least the engine is still running as good as new in every way for the entire time I have the car, instead of that engine getting tired and not running it's best as it ages.


First of all, unless you're going to do something immoral, unethical, or illegal, you'll never get an argument from me about what you "want" to do. You should do what you "want", as will I, and most any other person.

But data tells us that you approach is not needed. That is the difference between wants and needs. Do it if you want, but real world data and facts show us that premium products are not an exclusive means to the end; that of long equipment life.

"Better" products won't hurt your engine; no one ever said that. What they do is hurt your wallet. Why pay for "extra" stuff that has shown no benefit in the actual application?

You want to spend money on premium products. There's no proof that the money spent on premium products in normal applications gives a decent ROI.
I want to save money. There exists tons of data that shows normal products protect equipment every bit as well as more expensive products, when used in everyday applications.
Neither of us is wrong to do what we want here.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5113275
05/23/19 09:29 AM
05/23/19 09:29 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,165
Massachusetts
AuthorEditor Offline
AuthorEditor  Offline

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Posts: 2,165
Massachusetts
Quote
There's no proof that the money spent on premium products in normal applications gives a decent ROI.

From what we read on BITOG people advocating non-premium products often aren't really saving money. For example, using standard dino oil and changing the filter every 5000 miles does not save you any money over using synthetic oil and a better filter while only changing the oil every 10,000 miles, assuming that synthetics and better filters are about twice the price. If you count your time as worth something you get the same results for 50% of the labor cost. Plus there is a savings on trips to the store or delivery charges, clean up materials, rubber gloves, crush washers, etc. etc. It gets worse if you are doing OCIs of 3000 miles. I haven't seen any definitive proof that the synthetic regime described is any worse for normal engines in normal use. On the other hand, you could argue that ordinary oil and filters could probably be used for double-length OCIs with no harm, and then you would be seeing a significant savings.

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: dnewton3] #5113554
05/23/19 02:09 PM
05/23/19 02:09 PM
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Posts: 21,835
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline OP
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Patman  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dnewton3


But data tells us that you approach is not needed. That is the difference between wants and needs. Do it if you want, but real world data and facts show us that premium products are not an exclusive means to the end; that of long equipment life.

"Better" products won't hurt your engine; no one ever said that. What they do is hurt your wallet. Why pay for "extra" stuff that has shown no benefit in the actual application?

You want to spend money on premium products. There's no proof that the money spent on premium products in normal applications gives a decent ROI.
I want to save money. There exists tons of data that shows normal products protect equipment every bit as well as more expensive products, when used in everyday applications.
Neither of us is wrong to do what we want here.


But is any of this data for modern engines with direct injection? (which is becoming very common on a lot of engines these days, not just high performance ones) I think a lot of older engine designs were very forgiving when using lesser quality oils. But with direct injection and it's tendency to build up carbon on the back of intake valves (amongst other challenges like fuel dilution) I think choosing a premium oil can in fact make a big difference in it's life span. For instance, the oil I choose to run in my Corvette has a very low SA % of 0.6, and is reported to have a very low NOACK of under 6%. I think those two things alone will make a big difference in intake valve deposits (and overall engine cleanliness too) compared to if I just chose the cheapest available dexos1 rated oil (like Amazon Basics or Supertech for instance, and I doubt either of those choices will have the low SA and NOACK of M1 ESP Formula)


2018 Corvette, 12k, M1 ESP Formula 5w30 & NAPA Gold
2006 Civic EX Coupe, 151k, PUP 5w20 & Fram Ultra
2010 BMW 328i X-Drive,116k, GC 0w40 & Fram Ultra

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5113577
05/23/19 02:30 PM
05/23/19 02:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 21,155
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
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^^^ Patman - yes, DI engines seem to raise the bar and therefore not all products may give the same end results over time.

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: AuthorEditor] #5114023
05/23/19 09:42 PM
05/23/19 09:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,660
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
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Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted by AuthorEditor
From what we read on BITOG people advocating non-premium products often aren't really saving money. For example, using standard dino oil and changing the filter every 5000 miles does not save you any money over using synthetic oil and a better filter while only changing the oil every 10,000 miles, assuming that synthetics and better filters are about twice the price.

That's absolutely true. However, not everyone who switches to a filter and oil about twice the price will choose to double their OCI. Dnewton3's point over the years has been that lubricants and filters are generally very underutilized.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Garak] #5115344
05/25/19 11:45 AM
05/25/19 11:45 AM
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Houston, Texas
WellOiled Offline
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Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by AuthorEditor
From what we read on BITOG people advocating non-premium products often aren't really saving money. For example, using standard dino oil and changing the filter every 5000 miles does not save you any money over using synthetic oil and a better filter while only changing the oil every 10,000 miles, assuming that synthetics and better filters are about twice the price.

That's absolutely true. However, not everyone who switches to a filter and oil about twice the price will choose to double their OCI. Dnewton3's point over the years has been that lubricants and filters are generally very underutilized.

My Ford Ranger was hard on oil and would shear down conventional or synthetic blend oils in less than 3000 miles. I found the synthetic oils to be more robust and don’t readily shear down. I could easily run 6000 miles with a budget filter and the synthetic oil. If I wanted to extend I would want to back it up with a series of UOAs and a better filter.

Both true statements by Garak and AuthorEditor.


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