Jaguar F-Type V8 Supercharged.....0W20. Seriously?
- Thread starter DoubleWasp
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Originally Posted by Patman
A lot of the new BMW turbo engines call for 0w20 too (except the M cars) I just don't see how those engines are going to survive 200 to 300k with only a 2.7 HTHS. If it were mine, I'd run an oil with a 3.5 HTHS for sure.
This type of thinking needs to die because the rest of the car won't last over 200k miles. Nobody, and I mean nobody is going to maintain a Jaguar for over 200k miles. There are so many other things which will need replacement other than the bearings.
A lot of the new BMW turbo engines call for 0w20 too (except the M cars) I just don't see how those engines are going to survive 200 to 300k with only a 2.7 HTHS. If it were mine, I'd run an oil with a 3.5 HTHS for sure.
This type of thinking needs to die because the rest of the car won't last over 200k miles. Nobody, and I mean nobody is going to maintain a Jaguar for over 200k miles. There are so many other things which will need replacement other than the bearings.
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Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Yup, it's not the first owners who put on the 200,000 miles. Then when they turn it in, it's off warranty and you can do whatever you think you need to maximize the life of the car.
But what worries me is that BMW (and probably Jaguar too) offers free maintenance to the original owners of these cars and will be using that 0w20, so how much life is taken out of those engines by having 0w20 in there for the first few years?
Old school thinking. You boys really do underestimate 0-20 oils or at least the 0-20 I have used for the last 9 years and some 480K miles.
+1
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Yup, it's not the first owners who put on the 200,000 miles. Then when they turn it in, it's off warranty and you can do whatever you think you need to maximize the life of the car.
But what worries me is that BMW (and probably Jaguar too) offers free maintenance to the original owners of these cars and will be using that 0w20, so how much life is taken out of those engines by having 0w20 in there for the first few years?
Old school thinking. You boys really do underestimate 0-20 oils or at least the 0-20 I have used for the last 9 years and some 480K miles.
+1
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Yup, it's not the first owners who put on the 200,000 miles. Then when they turn it in, it's off warranty and you can do whatever you think you need to maximize the life of the car.
But what worries me is that BMW (and probably Jaguar too) offers free maintenance to the original owners of these cars and will be using that 0w20, so how much life is taken out of those engines by having 0w20 in there for the first few years?
Old school thinking. You boys really do underestimate 0-20 oils or at least the 0-20 I have used for the last 9 years and some 480K miles.
Have any of those miles been in a supercharged or turbocharged direct injected engine? Have you driven any of those engines super hard? I'm guessing no, so your experience means nothing compared to what we're talking about here.
I have no problem running 5w20 in my Honda, but put that same thin oil in a much more powerful turbo engine that heats up the oil way more, and is driven way harder, it's completely different.
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Yup, it's not the first owners who put on the 200,000 miles. Then when they turn it in, it's off warranty and you can do whatever you think you need to maximize the life of the car.
But what worries me is that BMW (and probably Jaguar too) offers free maintenance to the original owners of these cars and will be using that 0w20, so how much life is taken out of those engines by having 0w20 in there for the first few years?
Old school thinking. You boys really do underestimate 0-20 oils or at least the 0-20 I have used for the last 9 years and some 480K miles.
Have any of those miles been in a supercharged or turbocharged direct injected engine? Have you driven any of those engines super hard? I'm guessing no, so your experience means nothing compared to what we're talking about here.
I have no problem running 5w20 in my Honda, but put that same thin oil in a much more powerful turbo engine that heats up the oil way more, and is driven way harder, it's completely different.
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Now, he beats the ever loving daylights out of this car. Something about a Supercharged 5.0 510HP V8 carrying such a thin oil feels ridiculous to me......car like this getting it's ashes hauled in the middle of FL summer?
Based on that usage, he can up the HTHS to an LL-01FE BMW oil or Ravenol DXG 5w30 (both about HTHS 3.1). Up from his HTHS 2.7 for some margin in the heat and crazy driving. Amsoil SS 5w30 would work well too. M1 Annual Protection.
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by OilUzer
HTHS of 2.7
...Not going into any v8 I own.
My sons 2016 GMC Tahoe 6 ltr calls for 0-20, and with 100K on the engine it still uses no oil in his 10K OCIs. A friend has a 2014 Silverado with the 5.3 with 120K and it calls for 0-20. Both my son and my friend use M1 020.
Right, and Chrysler Hemi's have been getting Xw20 for years now, not to mention the old 4.6L Ford modular V8s.
Take a look at Boris's HTHS wear chart, which shows not much benefit going very high in HTHS. Benefits flatten out above around HTHS 3.0 really.
http://www.sveacon.se/lectures/fe_bizol.pdf
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/2417/filename/Capture.PNG "[Linked Image]")
Originally Posted by The Critic
It requires a very specific type of 0W-20 - one that is approved against the STJLR.51.5122 spec:
Don't think that spec is as tough as VW 508 (0w20) or Mercedes 229.71. If one didn't want to go to Amsoil SS or Ravenol DXG 5w30 oils in this Jag V8, to name 2 options, just use the higher-spec'ed German oils.
Now, he beats the ever loving daylights out of this car. Something about a Supercharged 5.0 510HP V8 carrying such a thin oil feels ridiculous to me......car like this getting it's ashes hauled in the middle of FL summer?
Based on that usage, he can up the HTHS to an LL-01FE BMW oil or Ravenol DXG 5w30 (both about HTHS 3.1). Up from his HTHS 2.7 for some margin in the heat and crazy driving. Amsoil SS 5w30 would work well too. M1 Annual Protection.
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by OilUzer
HTHS of 2.7
My sons 2016 GMC Tahoe 6 ltr calls for 0-20, and with 100K on the engine it still uses no oil in his 10K OCIs. A friend has a 2014 Silverado with the 5.3 with 120K and it calls for 0-20. Both my son and my friend use M1 020.
Right, and Chrysler Hemi's have been getting Xw20 for years now, not to mention the old 4.6L Ford modular V8s.
Take a look at Boris's HTHS wear chart, which shows not much benefit going very high in HTHS. Benefits flatten out above around HTHS 3.0 really.
http://www.sveacon.se/lectures/fe_bizol.pdf
Originally Posted by The Critic
It requires a very specific type of 0W-20 - one that is approved against the STJLR.51.5122 spec:
Don't think that spec is as tough as VW 508 (0w20) or Mercedes 229.71. If one didn't want to go to Amsoil SS or Ravenol DXG 5w30 oils in this Jag V8, to name 2 options, just use the higher-spec'ed German oils.
Originally Posted by Patman
...
Have any of those miles been in a supercharged or turbocharged direct injected engine? Have you driven any of those engines super hard? I'm guessing no, so your experience means nothing compared to what we're talking about here.
I have no problem running 5w20 in my Honda, but put that same thin oil in a much more powerful turbo engine that heats up the oil way more, and is driven way harder, it's completely different.
I'll be the test mule the forum engine destroyer! In fact I have I have almost 5 months and 3500 " fuel diluting" miles on the VW Turbo.
I asked the dealer if they would change it and they said they were OK with an oil change whenever I want.
I can report the engine is pretty "clattery" now at low rpm off boot but makes no nasty sounds when revved under boost.
IIRC this new 1.4 tsi is a belt engine with HLA. It may not be a dry belt design.
Interesting.
- Ken
...
Have any of those miles been in a supercharged or turbocharged direct injected engine? Have you driven any of those engines super hard? I'm guessing no, so your experience means nothing compared to what we're talking about here.
I have no problem running 5w20 in my Honda, but put that same thin oil in a much more powerful turbo engine that heats up the oil way more, and is driven way harder, it's completely different.
I'll be the test mule the forum engine destroyer! In fact I have I have almost 5 months and 3500 " fuel diluting" miles on the VW Turbo.
I asked the dealer if they would change it and they said they were OK with an oil change whenever I want.
I can report the engine is pretty "clattery" now at low rpm off boot but makes no nasty sounds when revved under boost.
IIRC this new 1.4 tsi is a belt engine with HLA. It may not be a dry belt design.
Interesting.
- Ken
Originally Posted by Patman
A lot of the new BMW turbo engines call for 0w20 too (except the M cars) I just don't see how those engines are going to survive 200 to 300k with only a 2.7 HTHS. If it were mine, I'd run an oil with a 3.5 HTHS for sure.
A lot of manufacturers were moving to producing engines with larger bearings if this is the case the 3.5 HTHS is obsolete and the bearings would not have to be much larger to make up for a few CST's between grades of motor oils.
A lot of the new BMW turbo engines call for 0w20 too (except the M cars) I just don't see how those engines are going to survive 200 to 300k with only a 2.7 HTHS. If it were mine, I'd run an oil with a 3.5 HTHS for sure.
A lot of manufacturers were moving to producing engines with larger bearings if this is the case the 3.5 HTHS is obsolete and the bearings would not have to be much larger to make up for a few CST's between grades of motor oils.
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Yup, it's not the first owners who put on the 200,000 miles. Then when they turn it in, it's off warranty and you can do whatever you think you need to maximize the life of the car.
But what worries me is that BMW (and probably Jaguar too) offers free maintenance to the original owners of these cars and will be using that 0w20, so how much life is taken out of those engines by having 0w20 in there for the first few years?
Old school thinking. You boys really do underestimate 0-20 oils or at least the 0-20 I have used for the last 9 years and some 480K miles.
Have any of those miles been in a supercharged or turbocharged direct injected engine? Have you driven any of those engines super hard? I'm guessing no, so your experience means nothing compared to what we're talking about here.
I have no problem running 5w20 in my Honda, but put that same thin oil in a much more powerful turbo engine that heats up the oil way more, and is driven way harder, it's completely different.
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so.
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Yup, it's not the first owners who put on the 200,000 miles. Then when they turn it in, it's off warranty and you can do whatever you think you need to maximize the life of the car.
But what worries me is that BMW (and probably Jaguar too) offers free maintenance to the original owners of these cars and will be using that 0w20, so how much life is taken out of those engines by having 0w20 in there for the first few years?
Old school thinking. You boys really do underestimate 0-20 oils or at least the 0-20 I have used for the last 9 years and some 480K miles.
Have any of those miles been in a supercharged or turbocharged direct injected engine? Have you driven any of those engines super hard? I'm guessing no, so your experience means nothing compared to what we're talking about here.
I have no problem running 5w20 in my Honda, but put that same thin oil in a much more powerful turbo engine that heats up the oil way more, and is driven way harder, it's completely different.
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so.
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Do these cars burn a lot of oil?
It's a Jaguar. Give it time. If it won't burn oil, it'll leak it.
Do these cars burn a lot of oil?
It's a Jaguar. Give it time. If it won't burn oil, it'll leak it.
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
...Take a look at Boris's HTHS wear chart, which shows not much benefit going very high in HTHS. Benefits flatten out above around HTHS 3.0 really.
http://www.sveacon.se/lectures/fe_bizol.pdf
[Linked Image]
...
I
Curious why there are so many oils with much higher hths than 3.0 and why is there a market for them?
...Take a look at Boris's HTHS wear chart, which shows not much benefit going very high in HTHS. Benefits flatten out above around HTHS 3.0 really.
http://www.sveacon.se/lectures/fe_bizol.pdf
[Linked Image]
...
I
Curious why there are so many oils with much higher hths than 3.0 and why is there a market for them?
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted by tig1
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so.
I'm sure they didn't test it out to 200,000 miles, or to see how the engine wears once that 0w20 ends up with a lot of fuel dilution and then is driven hard with very high oil temps. They are just testing it out to make it to the end of the warranty period, and beyond that they don't care. 0w20 should not be in any direct injected and forced induction high performance application, period.
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so.
I'm sure they didn't test it out to 200,000 miles, or to see how the engine wears once that 0w20 ends up with a lot of fuel dilution and then is driven hard with very high oil temps. They are just testing it out to make it to the end of the warranty period, and beyond that they don't care. 0w20 should not be in any direct injected and forced induction high performance application, period.
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by tig1
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so.
I'm sure they didn't test it out to 200,000 miles, or to see how the engine wears once that 0w20 ends up with a lot of fuel dilution and then is driven hard with very high oil temps. They are just testing it out to make it to the end of the warranty period, and beyond that they don't care. 0w20 should not be in any direct injected and forced induction high performance application, period.
Do you have any examples of BMW conducting testing in hopes of just making it to the end of warranty? This isn't the 70's when cars made it to 50K miles and it was time for the engine to drink motor oil and at 100K it's junk.
Originally Posted by tig1
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so.
I'm sure they didn't test it out to 200,000 miles, or to see how the engine wears once that 0w20 ends up with a lot of fuel dilution and then is driven hard with very high oil temps. They are just testing it out to make it to the end of the warranty period, and beyond that they don't care. 0w20 should not be in any direct injected and forced induction high performance application, period.
Do you have any examples of BMW conducting testing in hopes of just making it to the end of warranty? This isn't the 70's when cars made it to 50K miles and it was time for the engine to drink motor oil and at 100K it's junk.
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted by dave1251
Do you have any examples of BMW conducting testing in hopes of just making it to the end of warranty? This isn't the 70's when cars made it to 50K miles and it was time for the engine to drink motor oil and at 100K it's junk.
I don't have any examples, but do you have any evidence to the contrary? I didn't say it was fact, I simply stated my opinion. I agree that 20 weight oils can give long life for the average passenger car (keep in mind that's all I have been running in my Civic), but they simply have no place in high performance applications, especially when you add the double whammy of direct injection and forced induction. Just think of it this way, once a bunch of fuel gets into that oil it now turns into a 16 weight oil. Definitely not good.
BMW and Jaguar are betting that it won't matter too much to the original owner because they won't keep it long enough. Where it's going to hurt is the second and third owners.
Do you have any examples of BMW conducting testing in hopes of just making it to the end of warranty? This isn't the 70's when cars made it to 50K miles and it was time for the engine to drink motor oil and at 100K it's junk.
I don't have any examples, but do you have any evidence to the contrary? I didn't say it was fact, I simply stated my opinion. I agree that 20 weight oils can give long life for the average passenger car (keep in mind that's all I have been running in my Civic), but they simply have no place in high performance applications, especially when you add the double whammy of direct injection and forced induction. Just think of it this way, once a bunch of fuel gets into that oil it now turns into a 16 weight oil. Definitely not good.
BMW and Jaguar are betting that it won't matter too much to the original owner because they won't keep it long enough. Where it's going to hurt is the second and third owners.
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Originally Posted by Patman
A lot of the new BMW turbo engines call for 0w20 too (except the M cars) I just don't see how those engines are going to survive 200 to 300k with only a 2.7 HTHS. If it were mine, I'd run an oil with a 3.5 HTHS for sure.
Interesting comment. According to Carintelligent.com, 70% of new BMW's in the USA are leased. Very few new "owners" have any intention of taking their Beemers to 200,000 miles (or km for that matter), let alone 300,000 miles.
I agree. I think the problems, if any, will rear their ugly heads to the second owners of the vehicles. If it were mine I'd pass on the 0W20. I'd also avoid buying a used one.
I'll let the early adopters report on how well the 0W20 does in the sump.
Originally Posted by Patman
A lot of the new BMW turbo engines call for 0w20 too (except the M cars) I just don't see how those engines are going to survive 200 to 300k with only a 2.7 HTHS. If it were mine, I'd run an oil with a 3.5 HTHS for sure.
Interesting comment. According to Carintelligent.com, 70% of new BMW's in the USA are leased. Very few new "owners" have any intention of taking their Beemers to 200,000 miles (or km for that matter), let alone 300,000 miles.
I agree. I think the problems, if any, will rear their ugly heads to the second owners of the vehicles. If it were mine I'd pass on the 0W20. I'd also avoid buying a used one.
I'll let the early adopters report on how well the 0W20 does in the sump.
There's a lot of chatter about how this engine allegedly wants to self destruct it's timing system with a thicker oil.
Yeah, it makes no sense to me either, so we're going to dump in some nice LiquiMoly that specifically has been made for this spec and do a series of UOAs to see how it does.
If wear looks bad, we'll revisit the issue.
There is completely not any info out there of anyone running a different spec of oil in this engine, so this seems to be the best compromise.
Yeah, it makes no sense to me either, so we're going to dump in some nice LiquiMoly that specifically has been made for this spec and do a series of UOAs to see how it does.
If wear looks bad, we'll revisit the issue.
There is completely not any info out there of anyone running a different spec of oil in this engine, so this seems to be the best compromise.
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
There's a lot of chatter about how this engine allegedly wants to self destruct it's timing system with a thicker oil. ....LiquiMoly (LM) that specifically has been made for this spec
At least go for Ravenol ECS jaguar approved 0w20 oil instead of LM. Ravenol uses PAO and tungsten, often better than what LM is willing to do. Amazon prime has it for $65 per 5L big jug.... blauparts.com is worth a check too..... https://www.ravenol.de/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-ecs-sae-0w-20.html
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
...Take a look at Boris's HTHS wear chart, which shows not much benefit going very high in HTHS. Benefits flatten out above around HTHS 3.0 really. http://www.sveacon.se/lectures/fe_bizol.pdf [Linked Image]
Curious why there are so many oils with much higher hths than 3.0 and why is there a market for them?
There is a time go thicker, to around HTHS 3.5 or so, when racing, towing, high valve spring force in some performance engines (cam lobe pressure), or when a lot of permanent shear is expected, and Boris's HTHS wear chart shifts to the left and right a little depending on the engine type too.
For most engines that call for xw20 or xw30 in the Owner's Manual, limited benefits happen above HTHS 3.0. That explains why BMW, VW, Audi, and Mercedes, who previously always told us thick oils were the only ones allowed, now are spec'ing 0w20 and 0w30 low visc oils, and even back-specing in some older engines.
There's a lot of chatter about how this engine allegedly wants to self destruct it's timing system with a thicker oil. ....LiquiMoly (LM) that specifically has been made for this spec
At least go for Ravenol ECS jaguar approved 0w20 oil instead of LM. Ravenol uses PAO and tungsten, often better than what LM is willing to do. Amazon prime has it for $65 per 5L big jug.... blauparts.com is worth a check too..... https://www.ravenol.de/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-ecs-sae-0w-20.html
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
...Take a look at Boris's HTHS wear chart, which shows not much benefit going very high in HTHS. Benefits flatten out above around HTHS 3.0 really. http://www.sveacon.se/lectures/fe_bizol.pdf [Linked Image]
Curious why there are so many oils with much higher hths than 3.0 and why is there a market for them?
There is a time go thicker, to around HTHS 3.5 or so, when racing, towing, high valve spring force in some performance engines (cam lobe pressure), or when a lot of permanent shear is expected, and Boris's HTHS wear chart shifts to the left and right a little depending on the engine type too.
For most engines that call for xw20 or xw30 in the Owner's Manual, limited benefits happen above HTHS 3.0. That explains why BMW, VW, Audi, and Mercedes, who previously always told us thick oils were the only ones allowed, now are spec'ing 0w20 and 0w30 low visc oils, and even back-specing in some older engines.
Originally Posted by tig1
[
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so. [/quote]
Well, I have read posts here from BMW owners saying they fully expect to replace crank bearings at 70k miles as a matter of fact. So, I would say, NO.
[
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so. [/quote]
Well, I have read posts here from BMW owners saying they fully expect to replace crank bearings at 70k miles as a matter of fact. So, I would say, NO.
Quote
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so.
Yes they do. They recommend 0W20 in the US, in rest of the world they recommend oils with HTHS 3.5 and above.
However, while same engines in Europe are running on heavy 0/5W30 or light 0/5W40, Europe does not have CAFE requirements. That is answer to you.
BMW manuals in US also state that owner can use heavy oils with specifications LL01 or LL04.
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so.
Yes they do. They recommend 0W20 in the US, in rest of the world they recommend oils with HTHS 3.5 and above.
However, while same engines in Europe are running on heavy 0/5W30 or light 0/5W40, Europe does not have CAFE requirements. That is answer to you.
BMW manuals in US also state that owner can use heavy oils with specifications LL01 or LL04.
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Originally Posted by Treadstone
Originally Posted by tig1
[
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so.
Well, I have read posts here from BMW owners saying they fully expect to replace crank bearings at 70k miles as a matter of fact. So, I would say, NO.
[/quote]
But has that actually happened? Well?
Originally Posted by tig1
[
Don't BMW engineers know what their doing? Wouldn't they have tested 0-20 oils extensively before releasing their engines to the public with 0-20 in the sump? I would think so.
Well, I have read posts here from BMW owners saying they fully expect to replace crank bearings at 70k miles as a matter of fact. So, I would say, NO.
[/quote]
But has that actually happened? Well?
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