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Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Warstud] #5107249 05/16/19 09:48 PM
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JohnnyJohnson Offline
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Originally Posted by Warstud
I don't think you would want it to be 100% efficient then it would be to restrictive and the motor may not get the proper amount of lubrication.



No what I want is a 99.5% efficient at 10 microns and I'll use it as a bypass filter and it isn't going to stop any flow.


2004 Corolla 140080
Out: Havoline Pro DS 10w-30 Purolator PureOne 10-29-19 136457
In: Pennzoil Platinum HM 5W-20 ST 4386
2006 Duramax 77077
Out: T6 5W-40 XG9100 73909
In: Rotella Dino PH9100 11-3-19
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5107271 05/16/19 10:28 PM
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jongies3 Offline
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I think semi truck filters have lower micron filters but I don't know. I'm a trucker but don't get into the oil change side of it as there's paid mechanics that deal with that. But I believe one of them mentioned having 8 or 10 micron oil filters. Maybe that's why a highway diesel can last a million miles and passenger car engines can't? Who knows.


2004 Toyota Tacoma 3.4 V6: Mobil 1 AFE 0W-30, FRAM PH3614 filter
2003 Buick Park Avenue Ultra S/C 3.8 V6: QSGB 5W-30, FRAM PH3387 filter
2013 Honda 400EX ATV: Mobil 1 Racing 4t 10W-40, OEM filter
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: JohnnyJohnson] #5107283 05/16/19 10:39 PM
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geeman789 Offline
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Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted by geeman789
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Will more efficient filters restrict flow too much?


Considering how well the Fram Ultra flows in it's current form, couldn't they just tweak that media a little bit in order to filter even better, while not compromising flow by much?



How WELL do Fram Ultra's flow ? Good enough seems to be the standard answer, as Fram makes no claims about flow in the Ultra line.

They DO, however, advertise flow in their RACING filter line up ... from Fram's website

" ... Low-restriction racing media designed for high oil flow. The media features 94% efficiency @20 microns for excellent engine protection. "

And, where flow is optimized, filtration is compromised. Not sure there is any way around that.






Gee its that bad you must be able to document 1000's of engines using the Ultra's that have burned up please also post pictures .



Gee, it's too bad you missed the GOOD ENOUGH part in the above quote ... my point was simply that Fram promotes FILTRATION ( and longevity ) in the Ultra line, and seems to promote FLOW ( plus robust construction with decent filtration ) in the Racing line.


2011 SUBARU Impreza 5-door manual / 2016 HONDA Pilot / 2011 MAZDA 2 auto
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: geeman789] #5107301 05/16/19 11:37 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted by geeman789
... my point was simply that Fram promotes FILTRATION ( and longevity ) in the Ultra line, and seems to promote FLOW ( plus robust construction with decent filtration ) in the Racing line.


The flow vs delta-p shows to be about the same between the Ultra and the racing filter. You can have both high efficiency and flow with low delta-p.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5104536/1

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: 4WD] #5107345 05/17/19 02:53 AM
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SubieRubyRoo Offline
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Originally Posted by 4WD
Whatever happened to those … any users still here ?


Yep, I had a bunch of them for my Fusion and several for my Honda and Subies. I used one of the 3/4-16s and three of the 20mm ones. There were no real changes in UOA, but the oil did stay clearer longer and did not go dark on paper towels until just before the OCI was going to be up anyways.

I only have one 20mm filter left; I sold all the 3/4-16s to another board member and all my sizes are out of stock on Amazon. I hope the board member does some UOAs with PCs or at least C&Ps them when used. I’d still buy them at $10 each.


De omnibus dubitandum.
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5107426 05/17/19 07:30 AM
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krismoriah72 Offline
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wasnt there a theory awhile back that oil filters become more efficient with time and use up until they are loaded?

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: ZeeOSix] #5107671 05/17/19 12:41 PM
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geeman789 Offline
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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by geeman789
... my point was simply that Fram promotes FILTRATION ( and longevity ) in the Ultra line, and seems to promote FLOW ( plus robust construction with decent filtration ) in the Racing line.


The flow vs delta-p shows to be about the same between the Ultra and the racing filter. You can have both high efficiency and flow with low delta-p.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5104536/1


Do you believe the posted numbers ? Those manufacturer provided figures seem just a little too consistent ... maybe the 3 gpm flow rate is too low to see any meaningful differences in flow restriction.


2011 SUBARU Impreza 5-door manual / 2016 HONDA Pilot / 2011 MAZDA 2 auto
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5107694 05/17/19 01:12 PM
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AuthorEditor Offline
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From a practical standpoint today's typical car and small-truck engines seem to easily last up to and beyond 200,000 miles with nothing but Cheapy lube oil changes and no-name filters. At that point, much of the rest of the mechanical bits and pieces have either been replaced or will need to be, meaning it is more costly than just buying another vehicle. In the Northeast, the body and frame will be rotted out and need replacing too. It is always possible to build in greater longevity, but it just isn't practical from a cost/benefit standpoint. Personally, I've never junked a car because the engine was failing, and I've never had a major engine failure.

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: AuthorEditor] #5107797 05/17/19 03:21 PM
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JohnnyJohnson Offline
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Originally Posted by AuthorEditor
From a practical standpoint today's typical car and small-truck engines seem to easily last up to and beyond 200,000 miles with nothing but Cheapy lube oil changes and no-name filters. At that point, much of the rest of the mechanical bits and pieces have either been replaced or will need to be, meaning it is more costly than just buying another vehicle. In the Northeast, the body and frame will be rotted out and need replacing too. It is always possible to build in greater longevity, but it just isn't practical from a cost/benefit standpoint. Personally, I've never junked a car because the engine was failing, and I've never had a major engine failure.


Really how much more is the more efficient filter going to cost 50 cents or fifty dollars? My bet is under 50 cents. For a buck I'd switch to any filter that was documented as giving 100,000 more miles.


2004 Corolla 140080
Out: Havoline Pro DS 10w-30 Purolator PureOne 10-29-19 136457
In: Pennzoil Platinum HM 5W-20 ST 4386
2006 Duramax 77077
Out: T6 5W-40 XG9100 73909
In: Rotella Dino PH9100 11-3-19
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: JohnnyJohnson] #5107811 05/17/19 03:39 PM
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Pinoak Offline
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Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted by AuthorEditor
From a practical standpoint today's typical car and small-truck engines seem to easily last up to and beyond 200,000 miles with nothing but Cheapy lube oil changes and no-name filters. At that point, much of the rest of the mechanical bits and pieces have either been replaced or will need to be, meaning it is more costly than just buying another vehicle. In the Northeast, the body and frame will be rotted out and need replacing too. It is always possible to build in greater longevity, but it just isn't practical from a cost/benefit standpoint. Personally, I've never junked a car because the engine was failing, and I've never had a major engine failure.


Really how much more is the more efficient filter going to cost 50 cents or fifty dollars? My bet is under 50 cents. For a buck I'd switch to any filter that was documented as giving 100,000 more miles.

Is there a documented study showing any particular filter can "give 100,000 more miles?

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: geeman789] #5107864 05/17/19 04:39 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted by geeman789
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by geeman789
... my point was simply that Fram promotes FILTRATION ( and longevity ) in the Ultra line, and seems to promote FLOW ( plus robust construction with decent filtration ) in the Racing line.


The flow vs delta-p shows to be about the same between the Ultra and the racing filter. You can have both high efficiency and flow with low delta-p.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5104536/1


Do you believe the posted numbers ? Those manufacturer provided figures seem just a little too consistent ... maybe the 3 gpm flow rate is too low to see any meaningful differences in flow restriction.


Read the rest of that thread. Delta-p vs flow curves will have a similar shape as flow increases (at constant oil viscosity), so having a data point at 3 GPM pretty much tells most of the story on how the filter delta-p will look at higher flow rates.

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: krismoriah72] #5107873 05/17/19 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by krismoriah72
wasnt there a theory awhile back that oil filters become more efficient with time and use up until they are loaded?


Not always - they typically become less efficient as they load up. My theory is filters that have a low ISO efficiency rating have media that tends to slough off captured particles as they load up, as the graph below shows. In this example, the ISO 4548-12 efficiency rating would be 75% @ 20 microns. Bases on how ISO 4548-12 calculates overall efficiency (average of the start to end efficiency), a filter that rates very high can not by definition be dropping much if any efficiency as it loads up.

Oil Filter Efficiency vs Loading Time.JPG
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5107882 05/17/19 04:51 PM
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nthach Offline
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I think on passenger cars, larger sumps and decently good filtration will pay more dividends than simply better filtration. I like the Mercedes fleece filter + large(8-9qts on the V8s) sump idea. Maybe if the OEMs put utility patents on their oil filters it might happen.

Trucks and buses already have hybrid(full-flow and bypass in one) filtration and centrifuges to clean their oil. The typical consumer - us included will do anything to be cheap or avoid the dealership. The latter is pretty fascinating on how it works but it will be a liability on a passenger car.

Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: MNgopher] #5107896 05/17/19 05:19 PM
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DGXR Offline
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Originally Posted by MNgopher
Easy answer: Because there isn't an economic case for someone to make money doing so. If there were, someone would already be doing it.

Sure, maybe there is a media that would increase filtering dramatically without changing the package requirements to meet flow rates, bpyass pressures, etc... But if it costs a boatload more, are people willing to spend enough money on it for the manufacturer to break even? Make money?

Or, if the package has to be redesigned due to needing more filter media that doesn't fit in the original package size, who's going to spend the design dollars on it? Recoup the cost and testing to see if the redesigned package actually fits in all of its usual applications?

Whether it is a benefit to the end user doesn't matter if the manufacturer can't price it at a price point to make money and actually have people buy it.

And that's where the bypass stuff finds its niche - it fits multiple applications, making a one size fits all program much more cost effective for those who want it...

IMO this is about the best answer we are going to get on this topic.

Originally Posted by jongies3
I think semi truck filters have lower micron filters but I don't know. I'm a trucker but don't get into the oil change side of it as there's paid mechanics that deal with that. But I believe one of them mentioned having 8 or 10 micron oil filters. Maybe that's why a highway diesel can last a million miles and passenger car engines can't? Who knows.

Diesel tractor engines go millions of miles for several reasons:
1) diesel fuel is actually a light oil so the whole top end and cylinders are super-lubricated
2) diesel tractors are run for dozens of hours on end so everything gets nice and toasty, where engines (and lubricants) like to live
3) diesel tractors are driven 10-20 times more miles per year than the average passenger car, so the miles rack up fast before rust or other problems have a chance to set in
4) diesel rigs are usually very well maintained by the owner (no truck=no income)
5) probably many more reasons I can't think of right now


1995 Corvette coupe LT1 6-speed
2006 Tacoma 2.7 Base SR5 AC
1999 Yamaha YZ400FL
2003 Honda XR400R
Re: Why hasn't someone made a more efficient filter? [Re: Patman] #5107983 05/17/19 08:00 PM
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kfy81 Offline
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Hello,

1st post to the site. I wanna say I read somewhere that modern oils are so "good" with dispersants and whatnot, that vehicles could theoretically revert back to not needing oil filters. The oil is essentially the filter along with all it's other jobs (of course we all still want our oil filtets)... Also aren't the most damaging particles in the oiling system in that 20 micron range?

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