6-speed Allison 1000: 3 Fluid Options

[BlakeB]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by BlakeB
Can't shear below 5.5 cst, or won't pass mfg requirements if it shears below 5.5 cst under simulated test sequences in a given amount of time (so many hours in testing)? I have a hard time believing that a transmission fluid that starts at 5.7 to 5.8 cst won't shear below 5.5 cst. Most Dexron VI starts around 6 cst, but some are as low as 5.7 cst fresh from the bottle.



You can believe what you like but it's not fact it does not shear below 5.5cst in 100K miles of use.

 

[BlakeB]

You're pretending like 100,000 miles is the same for me as it is for anyone else. 3,000 hours in use is approximately the equivalent of 100,000 miles of typical consumer use.
There's a reason that most fleet trucks and police vehicles are serviced on the basis of time in operation rather than miles.

Furthermore, GM calls for a 45k mile transmission service if used in severe conditions. That would be in neighborhood of 1300-1400 hours, using an estimated average speed of 33 mph. In reality I average 14-15 mph, which will put me right at 3,000 hours around 45,000 miles.

I'm probably overthinking this, but I'm just spitballing here.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by BlakeB
You're pretending like 100,000 miles is the same for me as it is for anyone else. 3,000 hours in use is approximately the equivalent of 100,000 miles of typical consumer use.
There's a reason that most fleet trucks and police vehicles are serviced on the basis of time in operation rather than miles.

Furthermore, GM calls for a 45k mile transmission service if used in severe conditions. That would be in neighborhood of 1300-1400 hours, using an estimated average speed of 33 mph. In reality I average 14-15 mph, which will put me right at 3,000 hours around 45,000 miles.

I'm probably overthinking this, but I'm just spitballing here.



Then change at 45K miles it's still 5.5cst.

 

[BlakeB]

Originally Posted by WishIhadatruck
2001 4 Door Grand Prix GT, 3800 V6 with 4T65E trans.

Trans History:
May 2001: Purchased new
12/06/2003, 30,026 miles: Dropped the pan, changed the filter, refilled with 7.5 qts of Mobil 1 ATF
3/25/2006 60,800 miles: Added a ATF cooler
3/26/2006 60,820 miles: Dropped the pan, changed the filter, refilled with 7.5 qts of Mobil 1 ATF
8/23/2008 90,690 miles: Dropped the pan, changed the filter, flushed with 2.5 qts of leftover Mobil 1 ATF (DexIIIh) and 12+ qts of GM Vehicle Care Dex VI.
1/4/2010 121,108 miles: Dropped the pan, changed the filter, installed ZZPerformance shift kit, refilled with 8 qts of Valv. Dex VI.
3/24/11 150,009 miles: Dropped the pan, changed the filter, refilled with 8 qts of Valv. Dex. VI.

Sometime around 110k I started to have issues with the car slamming from gear to gear. It would mostly do this when running in hotter weather doing stop and go driving. It apparently is a common problem where the trans. thinks it isn't shifting fast enough (solenoid issue?) and defaults into a fail safe mode where it max.'s out the pump pressure. You hear lots of pump whine and the shifting gets incredibly hard. I installed a shift kit at the 120k mile pan drop and that seemed to pretty much fix the issue. Much cheaper than dropping the trans. to replace some valves. It will occasionally shift a little more firmly when hot but never like before. More recently (last summer) it was often kicking in and out of torque converter lock-up. Another not so uncommon problem with this trans apparently. By playing with the throttle you could minimize it but it was annoying and I was concerned with the additional wear. Researching it, I found there were multiple causes. To me it felt like the computer could just not make up its mind. I disconnected the battery for an afternoon last fall and it never really did it again. Maybe slightly during the next week or so but that was many months ago and so far so good, zero issues since. Due to those two issues I was wondering how valuable a UOA would be since I expected some extra wear metals and debris due to those two issues. I never saw anything unusual in my pan drops, even pulling the filter apart. This recent pan drop was no different. The pan looked very clean and the inside of the filter was very clean also.


Blackstone Coments: The universal average column along the right side of this page shows typical wear for a GM 4T65E transmission after about 40,000 miles on the oil. You ran this oil 30,000 miles, and wear accumulation was well below average across the board, which is a very good indication that your transmission's internal parts are all functioning properly at 179,999 miles. The viscosity was correct for ATF and no moisture or insolubles were found. The TAN came back at 1.4, showing only a normal amount of acidity present. Keep doing what you are doing. Your transmission looks good.

Comments welcome. I've got Redline D4 in it now. I did a pan drop with a filter change (8 qts) and flushed another 4 qts thru it for a total of 12 qts used. If I still have the car in another 90k miles I'll test it again.

I guess used Dex VI is still thinner than used M1 Dex IIIh. I can't complain about the wear however, especially considering the issues I had during this 90k mile period.

Code


OIL Valv Dex VI M1 DexIIIh

MILES IN USE 30k 30k Uni Avg

MILES 180k 90.5k

SAMPLE TAKEN 07/21/12 08/23/08



ALUMINUM 2 4 8

CHROMIUM 0 0 0

IRON 25 79 81

COPPER 54 113 112

LEAD 10 58 54

TIN 1 4 3

MOLYBDENUM 0 0 1

NICKEL 0 1 1

MANGANESE 0 1 1

SILVER 0 0 0

TITANIUM 0 0 0

POTASSIUM 1 2 2

BORON 72 83 86

SILICON 4 5 8

SODIUM 3 9 5

CALCIUM 69 132 142

MAGNESIUM 1 3 2

PHOSPHORUS 193 382 294

ZINC 11 11 45

BARIUM 0 0 0





INSOLUBLES 0 TR

WATER 0 0

FLASHPOINT �F 390 405

SUS VIS 210�F 44.0 45.0

cSt @ 212�F 5.41 5.72

TAN 1.4 1.4

 

[BlakeB]

Originally Posted by pdxglocker9mm
I drive a 07 with 192k
Drain and fill every 29-33 k since they bought it used w/42 k. Exterior filter only. I changed it a few weeks ago it was BRIGHT red looked like it had never been used. I would come up with a miles rather than hours interval. Stay out of the pan that filter was designed to be replaced on rebuild. The external filter is amazing and relatively cheap just don't forget the magnet. Last service was 6 qts mag 1 dex iv, plus 2 more super tech dex iv. Also a 14$ filter from amazon. It was about 60$ with all parts. It was a mix of mag 1 and super tech because mag 1 was cheaper but only sold in 6 packs. I needed 8. When i had the bottles together they were exactly the same except the color.


Are you also using the Mag 1 or Supertech Dex-VI in the transfer case, or is a a Dex-3 transfer case(older than 07.5)? If so, how does it look coming out of there?
Upon doing some more digging, the product data sheet info for the Starfire Dex-6 matches the PDS info for the Mag 1 Dex-6 exactly. My guess is that Starfire-Dex 6 is also made by Warren Distribution. Supposedly the Supertech Dex-VI/Mercon LV is also made by Warren Distribution. If that's the case, the Starfire Dexron-VI is a probably a steal for $3.68/quart after taxes. I think the Supertech Dex 6 is going for $6.46/quart at Walmart now.

I also learned that Dex VI approval has a 450 hour oxidation test (at 325°F), the tested fluid cannot drop below 5.0 cSt at 100°C during the test and pass Dex-VI approval. Allison uses the same test stands and operating conditions, but the tests are run to 600 hours. I couldn't find what specific viscosity and oxidation requirements must be met during testing for the TES-295 fluids.

 

[BlakeB]

I sent an email to Starfire (Coolants Plus, INC) asking if their Dexron VI was made by Warren Distribution, they didn't directly confirm. But I asked them to send me the License number and they did, J-60174, If you google that number it comes back as the approval number for 'Mag 1' , made by Warren Distribution.

 

[Shata]

I run Full Syn Supertech Dex VI, works fine. Meets specs. Way cheaper. Send it.

 

[nascarnation]

Originally Posted by KneeGrinder
Think about Dex 6 like this; Its GM's default transmission fluid for all of their transmissions. GM did not make the Allison transmission.

Allison had a transmission fluid blended to meet a specific spec, theirs= TES 295.

Now, think about how many Allison 1000 transmissions there are out there in trash trucks, fire trucks, busses, UPS trucks, GM/Chevy trucks ect. There is a lot of Allison 1000's out there. Allison didn't fill "any" of them with Dex 6, only GM did! Enough said? Ditch the Dex 6. Don't look back. GM gave you approval in the manual.



This is wisdom.
As I've said on here many times, Allison ran Castrol TES 295 for 75,0000 miles in a NYC Sanitation truck (our benchmark for hard duty), drained it out and brought it back to our lab, put it in a new 1000 series and ran the full life dynamometer validation test and both the fluid and transmission were still good to go at the end of the dyno test.

 

[BlakeB]

Originally Posted by nascarnation
Originally Posted by KneeGrinder
Think about Dex 6 like this; Its GM's default transmission fluid for all of their transmissions. GM did not make the Allison transmission.

Allison had a transmission fluid blended to meet a specific spec, theirs= TES 295.

Now, think about how many Allison 1000 transmissions there are out there in trash trucks, fire trucks, busses, UPS trucks, GM/Chevy trucks ect. There is a lot of Allison 1000's out there. Allison didn't fill "any" of them with Dex 6, only GM did! Enough said? Ditch the Dex 6. Don't look back. GM gave you approval in the manual.



This is wisdom.
As I've said on here many times, Allison ran Castrol TES 295 for 75,0000 miles in a NYC Sanitation truck (our benchmark for hard duty), drained it out and brought it back to our lab, put it in a new 1000 series and ran the full life dynamometer validation test and both the fluid and transmission were still good to go at the end of the dyno test.

Care to share details of the dyno testing? What conditions are tested and for how long? Is it a certain number of shifts or a certain number of hours at a given temp?

 

[nascarnation]

That's proprietary info, of course.
But consider the toughest customer duty cycle, with all the slack/idle times edited out, maximum vehicle GCW plus 10%, and run for the intended lifetime of a commercial vehicle.
It's a long expensive test, run in dynamometer cells, the kind of stuff that is typically available only at OEMs and major suppliers and a few specialty test labs like Southwest Research or AVL.

 

[BlakeB]

Originally Posted by nascarnation
That's proprietary info, of course.
But consider the toughest customer duty cycle, with all the slack/idle times edited out, maximum vehicle GCW plus 10%, and run for the intended lifetime of a commercial vehicle.
It's a long expensive test, run in dynamometer cells, the kind of stuff that is typically available only at OEMs and major suppliers and a few specialty test labs like Southwest Research or AVL.

What do you think about using a TES-295 clone after your warranty is up, such as:

Citgo Quatrasyn
Or
Delo Syn ATF HD

 

[nascarnation]

It's difficult to recommend fluids without knowing their actual composition or performance.
I understand why a lot of companies won't certify to TES-295 because it's not cheap to do so and the sales potential market really isn't huge like getting an engine oil certified for Dexos.
One of the reasons those approved fluids are expensive is that the mfgrs are baking the cost of that cert into the pie.

For lower cost alternatives, I've had good luck with the Valvoline Max Life "Full Synthetic"
Also the Petro Canada "regular" ATF is a very high quality fluid certified to Allison TES-389 which is essentially a spec to replace the obsolete GM Dexron III. If you're uncomfortable using a TES-295 as a lifetime fluid, another strategy is to use the Valvoline or Petro Canada with some reasonable change interval.

 

[BlakeB]

I ended up going with the Starfire Dexron VI, it meets the spec and at $3.67/quart I couldn't pass it up. This will be going in my dads LML(trans and transfer case), I'm going to keep it on Dex 6 at least until warranty is up and then I might switch it to a TES-295 clone.

Pics:Starfire Dexron VI

 

[BoiseRob]

My 2007 LBZ/Allison came factory filled with Dex VI. The first fluid I changed at 6 months was the Allsion's and switched it to syn Dex III. As long as you don't tune the truck, your Allison will out live the warranty period. After GM sold off Allison some time during the recession, the Allison 1000 was no longer made by Allison but at the same GM transmission plant as the rest of their transmission products.
The real question is since Allison prefers a fluid with a 7.5-8.0 viscosity (TES-295) and Dex VI is <7, how much longevity, if any, is the Dex VI taking from the trans life???

 

[weebl]

TES-295 of your choice. Look for actual TES-295 approval, not a "suitable for" or "recommended for." Price difference isn't worth a non-licenced version, IMHO. Double drain and fill (with about 100 miles in between) will give you functionally equivalent to 100% fluid change. Good for at least a 100k mile OCI on TES-295.

Use a new spin-on filter at the same time. Under normal conditions, you apparently do not need to drop the pan and change the internal filter. I only did the spin-on filter for my truck.

This thread from a Duramax forum is a Q&A with an Allison fluid engineer, who had a significant role in developing the TES-295 spec: https://www.dieselplace.com/forum/5...r-allison-fluids-engineer-here-help.html

That guy was also here on BITOG a few years back, and had a similar thread going.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by BlakeB
I ended up going with the Starfire Dexron VI, it meets the spec and at $3.67/quart I couldn't pass it up. This will be going in my dads LML(trans and transfer case), I'm going to keep it on Dex 6 at least until warranty is up and then I might switch it to a TES-295 clone.

Pics:Starfire Dexron VI



If the DEXRON VI is working there is no logical reason to change DEXRON VI is high quality ATF.