Rusted Brake Lines, possible fuel lines too '96 Grand Prix

[92saturnsl2]

I have a 1996 Grand Prix that I bought with a bad head gasket (or possible cracked head) with the intention of fixing it up, a project car of sorts. I stored it for a year until I freed up space in my garage this spring so that I can work on it. When I went to move the car into the garage, the brake pedal sank all the way to the floor and brake light illuminated.

I figured out what happened, on a flat spot under the car, near the firewall, there is a plastic bracket where about 5 (or 6) metal lines are secured into. Evidently this created a great location for salt to accumulate and all metal lines are rusted pretty badly in this area. I remember there being three small diameter lines and two larger. I believe the two larger lines to be fuel feed & return.

I'm sure there are tons of people who deal with this often in cold/salt areas who might be able to help me with this. I haven't done any brake line work but given that this is a project car, I have plenty of time to learn and don't want to put heaps of money into it on things I can do myself.

Is it possible to cut out only the affected portion of metal brake line, approx 5" and make a new section with union fittings to join existing line? We don't deal with much salt exposure/vehicle rust here, so the rest of the line is in good, rust-free condition. It's just where this plastic bracket is that it's really ate up.

Then what to do with the [presumably] fuel lines? I don't suppose you can just cut that bad section out..? I thought about using a rubber fuel injection rated hose to join the two good sides together (cut out bad spot) but you'd need to create a nipple on the pipe for it to be leak free. Is replacing the entire line the only option? I'm curious how these types of repairs are typically made, given the frequency people must deal with this on older cars in the rust belt.

 

[HangFire]

Do NOT use union fittings. They simply provide a new place for the brake line to fail.

Get yourself some NiCopp brake line, find out what kind of flare your car uses (usually either double or ISO/Bubble), buy yourself a flaring kit and a set of quality line wrenches... or maybe just one or two that you need... and get to work.

 

[atikovi]

Hope you only have $200 or $300 into it. Part it out or scrap it. Probably not worth the trouble to do those fixes on a common 20+ year old ride unless it was a seniors car with 30,000 miles.

 

[maxdustington]

You can maybe rent the flaring tool somewhere? I think it would be reasonably cheap to fix and you can use plastic fuel line tubing with constant tension clamps for the fuel lines (they look a lot like pex pipe clamps) but then again you need the crimper.

The tools will cost much more than the materials, and you unlikely to get your money's worth out of them as a DIY unless you work on a lot of cars.

Project cars have to be worth fixing to be worth fixing, unfortunately.

 

[HangFire]

RENT this tool? Have any of you actually done this job? I have.

NiCopp is about $25 a roll, for a few more dollars they throw in the fittings, your choice Metric or SAE.

An OTC Stinger 4503 double flare kit is $27 on Amazon. The ISO Bubble version is $35. NiCopp is EASY to flare compared to steel tube.

We're not talking big money here. Yeah to pay a garage might be $500-800. This is one place where DIY really, really pays off.

 

[willbur]

Originally Posted by HangFire
RENT this tool? Have any of you actually done this job? I have.

NiCopp is about $25 a roll, for a few more dollars they throw in the fittings, your choice Metric or SAE.

An OTC Stinger 4503 double flare kit is $27 on Amazon. The ISO Bubble version is $35. NiCopp is EASY to flare compared to steel tube.

We're not talking big money here. Yeah to pay a garage might be $500-800. This is one place where DIY really, really pays off.


My local AutoZone "rents" (loans out) a good flaring tool for free. That NiCopp is super easy to work with and doesn't rust. And check the flexible rubber brake lines where they join the metal portion. This is maybe covered by a sleeve that can hide serious corrosion

 

[HangFire]

92saturnsl2,

Before giving up, I would advise you to wait until more actual DIY types who have done this job weigh in. Anyway making brake lines are totally doable. NiCopp is inexpensive, quite easy to work with, form, flare, and hard to kink.

I'm sorry I haven't had to replace fuel lines in ages, since they were held on by hose clamps... so I don't have a lot of info there. I did repair a hydraulic line using the old components, new rubber and a Loggerhead Bionic Wrench as the crimper. Check YouTube for both fuel line and Hydraulic line repair, as they are essentially the same thing.

If you don't want to do the fuel line yourself, you have options. First of all it's a common GM vehicle, so RockAuto et al may have some very cheap parts. Also call the local Bobcat, farm tractor, and Outdoor Power Equipment dealers, and ask where they get their hydraulic lines repaired. Many of these guys are very competitive, they can do the job as quickly as give you an estimate, if you bring everything with you.

 

[92saturnsl2]

Originally Posted by atikovi
Hope you only have $200 or $300 into it. Part it out or scrap it. Probably not worth the trouble to do those fixes on a common 20+ year old ride unless it was a seniors car with 30,000 miles.


Not interested in scrapping it, and indeed I have more than $200-300 into it. Sure, I want to get the job done economically, but money isn't a primary consideration here. This is more a fun/long term project than a pure dollars and cents one (most folks with hobbies can relate), I'm going into it knowing that I will have more money in it than the car is worth and I'm 100% okay with that. Other than these issues, the car is solid and in good condition overall.

 

[DejaVue]

Originally Posted by 92saturnsl2

Then what to do with the [presumably] fuel lines? I don't suppose you can just cut that bad section out..? I thought about using a rubber fuel injection rated hose to join the two good sides together (cut out bad spot) but you'd need to create a nipple on the pipe for it to be leak free.

A whole lot of people with that GM family of cars put the fuel-injection-rated rubber hose on with two typical hose clamps on each side. No nipple or flaring it. If you do that, I'd recommend keeping an eye on it since you may have to tighten the clamps down again after a while. Is a flaring better? Yes.

Make sure the rest of the fuel line isn't rusted, such as in front of the rear tire, and where the lines go to the fuel pressure sending unit in the gas tank.

 

[rubberchicken]

Flaring tools can be had cheep. +2 on the Nicop - easy to work with. I bought a roll of Nicop from a well respected seller on eBay.

 

[Chris142]

You can use compression fittings on the fuel line. The kit we have is that way. The brake lines have to be flared.

 

[Lubener]

Originally Posted by HangFire
Do NOT use union fittings. They simply provide a new place for the brake line to fail.

Get yourself some NiCopp brake line, find out what kind of flare your car uses (usually either double or ISO/Bubble), buy yourself a flaring kit and a set of quality line wrenches... or maybe just one or two that you need... and get to work.

I have used unions many times (not brass)and never had a problem. You can get coated steel line premade and should be fine in your climate.The two ends need to have rust free line to flare and will need to bleed the system afterward.. When I did my 97 Buick, it used "European bubble ends". For fuel, I have successfully replaced sections of rusted steel fuel line with rubber hose intended for fuel injection use with clamps intended for fuel injection. Do not use a worm clamp! You will have to flare the two steel ends prior to connecting, don't just slide a hose on a smooth, unflared end! It will eventually leak. The hose must be SAE 30R9-rated if it is on the high pressure line..

 

[atikovi]

Originally Posted by 92saturnsl2
Originally Posted by atikovi
Hope you only have $200 or $300 into it. Part it out or scrap it. Probably not worth the trouble to do those fixes on a common 20+ year old ride unless it was a seniors car with 30,000 miles.


Not interested in scrapping it, and indeed I have more than $200-300 into it. Sure, I want to get the job done economically, but money isn't a primary consideration here. This is more a fun/long term project than a pure dollars and cents one (most folks with hobbies can relate), I'm going into it knowing that I will have more money in it than the car is worth and I'm 100% okay with that. Other than these issues, the car is solid and in good condition overall.


Your call but the head gasket alone would be a deal breaker. You could spend just as much time and money on something that will a lot more fun and valuable in the end. Like a Mustang convertible of that era or even a 10-15 year old Accord or Altima. Or making brake lines you can't beat the Mastercool tool https://www.mastercool.com/product/72485-universal-hydraulic-flaring-tool-set/ Bought one 3 years for $300 and only used twice but still cheaper than taking to a shop.

 

[eljefino]

If you're flaring your old brake lines, you're flaring steel, so you might as well get steel line.

If you truly, truly, have no other line rot, you can get pre-flared line at the parts store in foot-long increments.

If you've never flared before, get a 5-foot long line (a buck more) then cut it in half and practice flaring on that.

For the fuel lines, NAPA has a patch kit that comes with 18" of nylon and a compression fitting with one nylon and one metal ferrule. (Or maybe two b/c you'll need em) Though of course you could also do all metal. The nylon has some flex to it (nice) and is rust proof (nice again).

I would take off EVERY clamp all the way down the frame rail to the rear to see if you have rust festering under said clamps.

 

[The_Eric]

Done lots of both repairs. They're usually not hard unless access is restricted.

For the brake lines look every inch over - they can rust in weird places! As others have said, don't use compression fittings on brakes. Flaring is easy with a good tool. If you anticipate doing this type of work again, buy a good set up. I have a vice mounted turret type flaring tool and a hand operated hydraulic set up for under the car. You don't have to go thst fancy though.

For the fuel line, you can buy bulk poly tubing specifically for fuel and all the fittings. I prefer the press together type - a drop of oil on the fitting and a little heat from a hair dryer or heat gun and it slips right together. There is also a special tool (looks like a modified quick clamp for wood work) that holds the line and fitting and squeezes them together. If you're looking to splice poly into the existing steel, a compression adapter fitting is fine there.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted by Lubener
Originally Posted by HangFire
Do NOT use union fittings. They simply provide a new place for the brake line to fail.

Get yourself some NiCopp brake line, find out what kind of flare your car uses (usually either double or ISO/Bubble), buy yourself a flaring kit and a set of quality line wrenches... or maybe just one or two that you need... and get to work.

I have used unions many times (not brass)and never had a problem. You can get coated steel line premade and should be fine in your climate.The two ends need to have rust free line to flare and will need to bleed the system afterward.. When I did my 97 Buick, it used "European bubble ends".


I meant do not use compression unions on brake lines. Sorry I was not clear.

A simple double female screw-in union is fine, as long as you double or ISO/bubble flare properly going into it. Just keep in mind it introduces some weight in the system where none existed, and you should add some brake line extra supports on either side.