New Z4

[wag123]

Originally Posted by talest
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota needed BMW know-how.


"Needed" is a strong word, Toyota could have thrown money at this project & made a world class car in-house.
Would it make financial sense is the question....Millions in development, tooling & plant space on a niche market roadster/coupe?
It's not like they have BMW's following/consumer base for such a car.


I don't even think Supra fanboys like the new Supra. The main sticking point is that BMW engine, de-tuned for a Supra..

The Toyota 86 is the new FRS since Scion is dead and would fill the slot of the Celica. Even this was a joint venture with Subaru, which seems closer in match to Toyota than BMW.

The new Supra is going to be a tough sell for Toyota because traditional Toyota buyers/owners are going to be skeptical about it's long-term reliability/durability (I am). Frankly, if I were interested in buying the new Supra, I would also be looking at the Z4. If the price were the same or close, I would buy the Z4. Either way, I would wait for a couple of production years to see what kind of issues they were having before pulling the trigger.
Toyota owns controlling interest in Subaru so they aren't just a closer match, they are umbilically tied.

 

[talest]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by talest
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota needed BMW know-how.


"Needed" is a strong word, Toyota could have thrown money at this project & made a world class car in-house.
Would it make financial sense is the question....Millions in development, tooling & plant space on a niche market roadster/coupe?
It's not like they have BMW's following/consumer base for such a car.


I don't even think Supra fanboys like the new Supra. The main sticking point is that BMW engine, de-tuned for a Supra..

The Toyota 86 is the new FRS since Scion is dead and would fill the slot of the Celica. Even this was a joint venture with Subaru, which seems closer in match to Toyota than BMW.

The new Supra is going to be a tough sell for Toyota because traditional Toyota buyers/owners are going to be skeptical about it's long-term reliability/durability (I am). Frankly, if I were interested in buying the new Supra, I would also be looking at the Z4. If the price were the same or close, I would buy the Z4. Either way, I would wait for a couple of production years to see what kind of issues they were having before pulling the trigger.
Toyota owns controlling interest in Subaru so they aren't just a closer match, they are umbilically tied.


The new Supra is an insult. I feel it does not look good, who knows if fellow Supra people think the same but The new Supra is a bigger bomb than the new NSX, where NSX enthusiast . were awaiting a new version of the NSX and not some new electrical muddied car called the NSX .

Quote
And after 21 years of waiting, what do we get in the new Toyota Supra? 335 horsepower and 365 lb-ft. of torque. Looks impressive, right? Not until you find out how the 2019 BMW Z4 M40i churns out 382 horsepower and 369 lb-ft. of torque from the same inline-six.


https://www.automoblog.net/2019/01/19/toyota-bmw-sports-cars/

Even Lexus could not get a V10 supercar right and the new LC500 is a yawn, also slower than the outgoing LFA. what is going on here.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota needed BMW know-how.


"Needed" is a strong word, Toyota could have thrown money at this project & made a world class car in-house.
Would it make financial sense is the question....Millions in development, tooling & plant space on a niche market roadster/coupe?
It's not like they have BMW's following/consumer base for such a car.

There is a reason why Toyota choose BMW. DO not forget that Toyota is buying small diesels from BMW (though they tried to build their own engines first, and PROVED they do not know it, literally).
But, Toyota is first or second largest auto maker in the world (shifting with VW). How is that Mazda has money to build inline six and Toyota does not have? It is not only pouring money into facilities, they would need to poach bunch of engineers too.
https://jalopnik.com/mazda-challenges-bmw-and-mercedes-shames-toyota-with-d-1834636620

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota needed BMW know-how.


"Needed" is a strong word, Toyota could have thrown money at this project & made a world class car in-house.
Would it make financial sense is the question....Millions in development, tooling & plant space on a niche market roadster/coupe?
It's not like they have BMW's following/consumer base for such a car.

There is a reason why Toyota choose BMW. DO not forget that Toyota is buying small diesels from BMW (though they tried to build their own engines first, and PROVED they do not know it, literally).
But, Toyota is first or second largest auto maker in the world (shifting with VW). How is that Mazda has money to build inline six and Toyota does not have? It is not only pouring money into facilities, they would need to poach bunch of engineers too.
https://jalopnik.com/mazda-challenges-bmw-and-mercedes-shames-toyota-with-d-1834636620




I wonder where Mazda got the funding? I would also think that Toyota buying BMW Diesel engines will not go on much longer. Some more research is needed from you.

You are just blathering along with your anti-Toyota spiel here.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota needed BMW know-how.


"Needed" is a strong word, Toyota could have thrown money at this project & made a world class car in-house.
Would it make financial sense is the question....Millions in development, tooling & plant space on a niche market roadster/coupe?
It's not like they have BMW's following/consumer base for such a car.


There is a reason why Toyota choose BMW. DO not forget that Toyota is buying small diesels from BMW (though they tried to build their own engines first, and PROVED they do not know it, literally).
But, Toyota is first or second largest auto maker in the world (shifting with VW). How is that Mazda has money to build inline six and Toyota does not have? It is not only pouring money into facilities, they would need to poach bunch of engineers too.
https://jalopnik.com/mazda-challenges-bmw-and-mercedes-shames-toyota-with-d-1834636620


Toyota & Diesel in the same sentence doesn't really inspire confidence in my eyes, They are a majority shareholder in Hino though?

They may have the same issue that GM had.....GM owned Detroit Diesel & couldn't engineer a light duty diesel to save their lives! But they engineered the Series 60.....Probably one of the BEST diesel engines of its size (11-14 litre) ever constructed!!

Why do they have to build a inline six for the Supra? Nissan got away with building a V6 Skyline......
Take the 2GR-FE....Closed the deck, Enlarge the Head Bolts, Forge the internals, Install Twin hair dryers. And start testing & refining it 10 years ago

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota needed BMW know-how.


"Needed" is a strong word, Toyota could have thrown money at this project & made a world class car in-house.
Would it make financial sense is the question....Millions in development, tooling & plant space on a niche market roadster/coupe?
It's not like they have BMW's following/consumer base for such a car.

There is a reason why Toyota choose BMW. DO not forget that Toyota is buying small diesels from BMW (though they tried to build their own engines first, and PROVED they do not know it, literally).
But, Toyota is first or second largest auto maker in the world (shifting with VW). How is that Mazda has money to build inline six and Toyota does not have? It is not only pouring money into facilities, they would need to poach bunch of engineers too.
https://jalopnik.com/mazda-challenges-bmw-and-mercedes-shames-toyota-with-d-1834636620




I wonder where Mazda got the funding? I would also think that Toyota buying BMW Diesel engines will not go on much longer. Some more research is needed from you.

You are just blathering along with your anti-Toyota spiel here.

Is that why Toyota committed 100% to diesels from BMW?
Also, they are jointly working on hybrid technology (this is obviously where Toyota had/has upper hand).
Toyota will not develop diesels (which are actually recovering in Europe) anymore. They are strictly getting BMW products.
The question is what happens with B48 engine that will be also available in Supra. Obviously partnership between Toyota and BMW is much deeper than just Supra. I would not be surprised if B48 find its way in some other models.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203833104577071554239661524

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota needed BMW know-how.


"Needed" is a strong word, Toyota could have thrown money at this project & made a world class car in-house.
Would it make financial sense is the question....Millions in development, tooling & plant space on a niche market roadster/coupe?
It's not like they have BMW's following/consumer base for such a car.


There is a reason why Toyota choose BMW. DO not forget that Toyota is buying small diesels from BMW (though they tried to build their own engines first, and PROVED they do not know it, literally).
But, Toyota is first or second largest auto maker in the world (shifting with VW). How is that Mazda has money to build inline six and Toyota does not have? It is not only pouring money into facilities, they would need to poach bunch of engineers too.
https://jalopnik.com/mazda-challenges-bmw-and-mercedes-shames-toyota-with-d-1834636620


Toyota & Diesel in the same sentence doesn't really inspire confidence in my eyes, They are a majority shareholder in Hino though?

They may have the same issue that GM had.....GM owned Detroit Diesel & couldn't engineer a light duty diesel to save their lives! But they engineered the Series 60.....Probably one of the BEST diesel engines of its size (11-14 litre) ever constructed!!

Why do they have to build a inline six for the Supra? Nissan got away with building a V6 Skyline......
Take the 2GR-FE....Closed the deck, Enlarge the Head Bolts, Forge the internals, Install Twin hair dryers. And start testing & refining it 10 years ago

I asked that question few pages ago. Toyota has on the shelf new 3.5 Twin Turbo developed out of 2GR-FKS. Yes, V6 will never be as smooth and balanced as inline engine, but I think there is much more to this than just engine. On top of that no one does ZF8 programing like BMW< and Aisin 8 speed is no where close in performance and reliability.
I am not sure what happened with Toyota D-4D engines, 1.4 and 2.2 and why they had such abysmal reliability. I have in Land Cruiser their 3.0 D-4D, and it is much better, but also not pinnacle of reliability. On other hand, I drove while working for Red Cross in 90's LC with inline six diesel and no turbo. Now, that was a workhorse.

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by PimTac


You are just blathering along with your anti-Toyota spiel here.


Is that why Toyota committed 100% to diesels from BMW?
Also, they are jointly working on hybrid technology (this is obviously where Toyota had/has upper hand).
Toyota will not develop diesels (which are actually recovering in Europe) anymore. They are strictly getting BMW products.
The question is what happens with B48 engine that will be also available in Supra. Obviously partnership between Toyota and BMW is much deeper than just Supra. I would not be surprised if B48 find its way in some other models.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203833104577071554239661524


PimTac is a Toyota fanboy, careful with any critique of the brand, you'll be confronted with attempts to detour you off the subject and call out any information you offered, into question.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by edyvw



I asked that question few pages ago. Toyota has on the shelf new 3.5 Twin Turbo developed out of 2GR-FKS. Yes, V6 will never be as smooth and balanced as inline engine, but I think there is much more to this than just engine. On top of that no one does ZF8 programing like BMW< and Aisin 8 speed is no where close in performance and reliability.
I am not sure what happened with Toyota D-4D engines, 1.4 and 2.2 and why they had such abysmal reliability. I have in Land Cruiser their 3.0 D-4D, and it is much better, but also not pinnacle of reliability. On other hand, I drove while working for Red Cross in 90's LC with inline six diesel and no turbo. Now, that was a workhorse.


Keep in mind that Toyota's wheelhouse historically was high volume small/mid-size sedans (Corolla, Camry, Avalon). Their customers are extremely price sensitive so FWD layout is the defacto standard. That's means only I4 and more importantly V6's.

IMO I also believe that Toyota, like the others, realize that the days of the ICE are numbered so it never makes sense for them to develop an I6 when their customers are moving to hybrids.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
IMO I also believe that Toyota, like the others, realize that the days of the ICE are numbered so it never makes sense for them to develop an I6 when their customers are moving to hybrids.

+1
The whole automotive world is moving to Hybrids and EVs. Look what is happening in auto racing and with some exotic cars. ICE powered vehicles, especially Diesels, are rapidly becoming obsolete. Toyota knows this and they have known it for over 30 years. They are (and have been) one of the prime developers/innovators of this technology and have tens of thousands of patents in this area.

 

[talest]

Originally Posted by LoneRanger
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by PimTac


You are just blathering along with your anti-Toyota spiel here.


Is that why Toyota committed 100% to diesels from BMW?
Also, they are jointly working on hybrid technology (this is obviously where Toyota had/has upper hand).
Toyota will not develop diesels (which are actually recovering in Europe) anymore. They are strictly getting BMW products.
The question is what happens with B48 engine that will be also available in Supra. Obviously partnership between Toyota and BMW is much deeper than just Supra. I would not be surprised if B48 find its way in some other models.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203833104577071554239661524


PimTac is a Toyota fanboy, careful with any critique of the brand, you'll be confronted with attempts to detour you off the subject and call out any information you offered, into question.


Always fun when people try to do that.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by edyvw



I asked that question few pages ago. Toyota has on the shelf new 3.5 Twin Turbo developed out of 2GR-FKS. Yes, V6 will never be as smooth and balanced as inline engine, but I think there is much more to this than just engine. On top of that no one does ZF8 programing like BMW< and Aisin 8 speed is no where close in performance and reliability.
I am not sure what happened with Toyota D-4D engines, 1.4 and 2.2 and why they had such abysmal reliability. I have in Land Cruiser their 3.0 D-4D, and it is much better, but also not pinnacle of reliability. On other hand, I drove while working for Red Cross in 90's LC with inline six diesel and no turbo. Now, that was a workhorse.


Keep in mind that Toyota's wheelhouse historically was high volume small/mid-size sedans (Corolla, Camry, Avalon). Their customers are extremely price sensitive so FWD layout is the defacto standard. That's means only I4 and more importantly V6's.

IMO I also believe that Toyota, like the others, realize that the days of the ICE are numbered so it never makes sense for them to develop an I6 when their customers are moving to hybrids.

I do not question that. VW dieselgate put final nail into coffin of ICE.
But that is not the question that was raised, video was suggesting this:
Toyota is going to buy engine from BMW, transmission from ZF made for BMW, which will be programmed by BMW, BMW platform, BMW suspension, BMW iDrive, because Toyota cannot do that on their own, BMW alone will test Supra, BUT, Toyota will tell BMW how to do it.
It is mental state of Toyota fan boys/girls living in alternate universe, hearing voices inside the head that they drive vehicle that is somehow different from your local bus.
Only difference between Toyota and bus from local public transportation company is that Toyota is parked in garage, and bus is not. Otherwise, experience is the same.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
IMO I also believe that Toyota, like the others, realize that the days of the ICE are numbered so it never makes sense for them to develop an I6 when their customers are moving to hybrids.

+1
The whole automotive world is moving to Hybrids and EVs. Look what is happening in auto racing and with some exotic cars. ICE powered vehicles, especially Diesels, are rapidly becoming obsolete. Toyota knows this and they have known it for over 30 years. They are (and have been) one of the prime developers/innovators of this technology and have tens of thousands of patents in this area.

That is partly true. However, in 1990's Toyota devoted much more money to diesel technology than hybrid. They also thought ICE will be present for much longer than it is clear now. However, failure to provide reliable diesels pushed Toyota toward hybrids. At the same time price of oil skyrocketed and they absolutely made a right decision.
However, they still could not figure out to make a car that drives properly. That is something that they still have to figure out. Hence, comes BMW.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by edyvw
in 1990's Toyota devoted much more money to diesel technology than hybrid.
Show me this in writing.

 

[Smokescreen]

When I look at these collaborations I just see Toyota got lazy and didn't want to come up with a car solely from their own R&D. Its like the Chevy/Toyota Prism. Chevy couldn't make a reliable economy car to save their lives....so they borrowed from Toyota.

The Z4/Supra is a BMW/Toyota car. There is no Supra heritage there & like the BRZ/86 is a Subaru/Toyota. No AE86 heritage there.


The Supra didn't have to have an inline 6, it could have had a v6 or even v8 and the buyers would have forgiven them...the buyers wanted one thing.... a sporty Toyota that was purely Toyota. They could have obtained that by..stripping down a zippy Lexus unit and going from there.

 

[SatinSilver]

The preliminary pics below in red looked good I thought. Then the final design came out and the bulbous roofline/rear don't look too good imo.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by Smokescreen
When I look at these collaborations I just see Toyota got lazy and didn't want to come up with a car solely from their own R&D. Its like the Chevy/Toyota Prism. Chevy couldn't make a reliable economy car to save their lives....so they borrowed from Toyota.
The Z4/Supra is a BMW/Toyota car. There is no Supra heritage there & like the BRZ/86 is a Subaru/Toyota. No AE86 heritage there.
The Supra didn't have to have an inline 6, it could have had a v6 or even v8 and the buyers would have forgiven them...the buyers wanted one thing.... a sporty Toyota that was purely Toyota. They could have obtained that by..stripping down a zippy Lexus unit and going from there.
Clinebarger answered this argument the best...
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Toyota could have thrown money at this project & made a world class car in-house.
Would it make financial sense is the question....Millions in development, tooling & plant space on a niche market roadster/coupe?
It's not like they have BMW's following/consumer base for such a car.

As for Toyota not being able to design and produce a fast and entertaining high performance sports car, let me mention just a few of them...
>1993-1998 Toyota Supra Turbo 6-speed, more than 100hp/L (for the person that said Toyota never achieved this), 4.6 second 0-60, 0.98G skid pad, 67 mph slalom, and the best braking performance of any unmodified production car with OEM tires until 2004, 114 ft 60-0. This car is also a darling of the tuners because it's horsepower can be doubled (or more) with very little effort or expense.
>2011-2012 Lexus LFA, well over 100hp/L, 3.6 second 0-60, 10.8 second 0-120, 202 mph top speed, 1.05G skidpad, 75.2 mph slalom, 94 ft 60-0, and a lap of the Nurburgring in 7:14.64 with a top speed of 185 mph on the "Dottinger" uphill climb (almost ten seconds quicker than the Porsche 911 GT2 RS at 7:24). It was a legitimate super car. This car was designed/manufactured by Toyota with Yamaha assisting with engine development.
>2017-Present Lexus LC 500, just under 100hp/L without being turbocharged, 4.6 second 0-60, too large and heavy to really be considered a sports car, but still plenty quick and entertaining, as well as a comfortable and classy driver.
>2014-Present Lexus RC F, same engine as the LC 500 but in a smaller lighter car, 4.0 second 0-60, a little rougher around the edges than the LC 500, but fast and very entertaining.

For the naysayers that say Toyota is not capable of designing/manufacturing a fast and entertaining/exciting car, you obviously have never driven a 1993-1998 Supra Turbo 6-speed, a car that was produced over 20 years ago! As for Toyota needing BMW's expertise to do this project, that is just plain nonsense, Toyota doesn't need BMW any more than BMW needs Toyota. The reason for Toyota doing it this way is all about the money. The horsepower difference between the 6-cyl Z4 and Supra is also all about the money. For those of you complaining about it, let me point out that the 6-cyl Supra is about the same price as the 4-cyl Z4, and at THAT price, the Supra has significantly more power. Regardless, soon after a few Supras get out on the street, the aftermarket and owners will erase the horsepower difference right quick.

 

[wag123]

I forgot about the 1991 Toyota MR2 W20 Turbo 5-speed. Talk about a fun car, the MR2 is a gas! A Toyota designed and manufactured car from top to bottom. With a couple of grand worth of suspension and tire upgrades, the 2.0L 200hp (100hp/L) mid-engine car is quick and handles like a gocart.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by wag123

>1993-1998 Toyota Supra Turbo 6-speed, more than 100hp/L (for the person that said Toyota never achieved this), 4.6 second 0-60, 0.98G skid pad, 67 mph slalom, and the best braking performance of any unmodified production car with OEM tires until 2004, 114 ft 60-0. This car is also a darling of the tuners because it's horsepower can be doubled (or more) with very little effort or expense.
>2011-2012 Lexus LFA, well over 100hp/L, 3.6 second 0-60, 10.8 second 0-120, 202 mph top speed, 1.05G skidpad, 75.2 mph slalom, 94 ft 60-0, and a lap of the Nurburgring in 7:14.64 with a top speed of 185 mph on the "Dottinger" uphill climb (almost ten seconds quicker than the Porsche 911 GT2 RS at 7:24). It was a legitimate super car. This car was designed/manufactured by Toyota with Yamaha assisting with engine development.
>2017-Present Lexus LC 500, just under 100hp/L without being turbocharged, 4.6 second 0-60, too large and heavy to really be considered a sports car, but still plenty quick and entertaining, as well as a comfortable and classy driver.
>2014-Present Lexus RC F, same engine as the LC 500 but in a smaller lighter car, 4.0 second 0-60, a little rougher around the edges than the LC 500, but fast and very entertaining.

For the naysayers that say Toyota is not capable of designing/manufacturing a fast and entertaining/exciting car, you obviously have never driven a 1993-1998 Supra Turbo 6-speed, a car that was produced over 20 years ago! As for Toyota needing BMW's expertise to do this project, that is just plain nonsense, Toyota doesn't need BMW any more than BMW needs Toyota. The reason for Toyota doing it this way is all about the money. The horsepower difference between the 6-cyl Z4 and Supra is also all about the money. For those of you complaining about it, let me point out that the 6-cyl Supra is about the same price as the 4-cyl Z4, and at THAT price, the Supra has significantly more power. Regardless, soon after a few Supras get out on the street, the aftermarket and owners will erase the horsepower difference right quick.



I said Toyota has never sold fleet wide an engine that made 100hp/liter. BMW has been doing it since 2007 starting with the N54 (3L 300hp/300tq).

The N54 was available in every model BMW sold.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by Smokescreen
When I look at these collaborations I just see Toyota got lazy and didn't want to come up with a car solely from their own R&D. Its like the Chevy/Toyota Prism. Chevy couldn't make a reliable economy car to save their lives....so they borrowed from Toyota.
The Z4/Supra is a BMW/Toyota car. There is no Supra heritage there & like the BRZ/86 is a Subaru/Toyota. No AE86 heritage there.
The Supra didn't have to have an inline 6, it could have had a v6 or even v8 and the buyers would have forgiven them...the buyers wanted one thing.... a sporty Toyota that was purely Toyota. They could have obtained that by..stripping down a zippy Lexus unit and going from there.
Clinebarger answered this argument the best...
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Toyota could have thrown money at this project & made a world class car in-house.
Would it make financial sense is the question....Millions in development, tooling & plant space on a niche market roadster/coupe?
It's not like they have BMW's following/consumer base for such a car.

As for Toyota not being able to design and produce a fast and entertaining high performance sports car, let me mention just a few of them...
>1993-1998 Toyota Supra Turbo 6-speed, more than 100hp/L (for the person that said Toyota never achieved this), 4.6 second 0-60, 0.98G skid pad, 67 mph slalom, and the best braking performance of any unmodified production car with OEM tires until 2004, 114 ft 60-0. This car is also a darling of the tuners because it's horsepower can be doubled (or more) with very little effort or expense.
>2011-2012 Lexus LFA, well over 100hp/L, 3.6 second 0-60, 10.8 second 0-120, 202 mph top speed, 1.05G skidpad, 75.2 mph slalom, 94 ft 60-0, and a lap of the Nurburgring in 7:14.64 with a top speed of 185 mph on the "Dottinger" uphill climb (almost ten seconds quicker than the Porsche 911 GT2 RS at 7:24). It was a legitimate super car. This car was designed/manufactured by Toyota with Yamaha assisting with engine development.
>2017-Present Lexus LC 500, just under 100hp/L without being turbocharged, 4.6 second 0-60, too large and heavy to really be considered a sports car, but still plenty quick and entertaining, as well as a comfortable and classy driver.
>2014-Present Lexus RC F, same engine as the LC 500 but in a smaller lighter car, 4.0 second 0-60, a little rougher around the edges than the LC 500, but fast and very entertaining.

For the naysayers that say Toyota is not capable of designing/manufacturing a fast and entertaining/exciting car, you obviously have never driven a 1993-1998 Supra Turbo 6-speed, a car that was produced over 20 years ago! As for Toyota needing BMW's expertise to do this project, that is just plain nonsense, Toyota doesn't need BMW any more than BMW needs Toyota. The reason for Toyota doing it this way is all about the money. The horsepower difference between the 6-cyl Z4 and Supra is also all about the money. For those of you complaining about it, let me point out that the 6-cyl Supra is about the same price as the 4-cyl Z4, and at THAT price, the Supra has significantly more power. Regardless, soon after a few Supras get out on the street, the aftermarket and owners will erase the horsepower difference right quick.


BMW did not need turbo for that in mid-1990's.