Modern auto alternators -vs (old) auto generators?

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Watching the "ignition light" on the MG-which per my understanding is both PART of the field excitation circuit and also tells whether or not the alternator is outputting current-is always a bit interesting. When you turn the key to the "on" position the light should illuminate. On my car, and on most others I've been around, after starting the light will initially stay on and requires a "blip" up to 2-3K rpms for the field to excite and the light to go out. The only cars I've seen where the light goes out immediately are the ones where the fast idle is set really high and the car is started with full choke(my fast idle cams are set to have the engine at ~1300rpms on full choke with the engine cold, although that will jump up to ~2500 on a warm engine provided that I manipulate the knob such that I'm only using fast idle and not enrichment). In any case, though, once the light is out it will generally only start to flicker on if the engine dips below ~500rpms-a speed that it's REALLY unhappy running.

At the same time, I often raise the idle to over 1K in the winter since with the extra draw from the heater blower motor, the headlights will dim noticeably below ~900rpms. I also run into a problem when I'm using the lights+blower+turn signals(and maybe wipers too) where the old thermal flasher won't actually flash at idle-I'm guessing the voltage to the turn signals is low enough that the bulbs aren't drawing enough current to activate the thermal flasher. I think that's evidence that I'm definitely on the threshold of what the alternator can supply, especially considering that even raising the idle a bit or blipping the gas will both brighten up the headlights and allow the signals to flash.

A Lucas 16ACR alternator is rated for 32A max, and presumably it's probably maxing at ~15A at idle. It's not too difficult to get there with a set of sealed beam halogens, especially when you start adding in tail lights and dash lights(never mind stuff like the blower and/or wipers). It's also no surprised that even a radio driving two speakers(I don't have anything in my car other than some unused speakers) can have idle issues. ~1975 and on used electric cooling fans in lieu of an engine driven one, and I consider them an overall good thing but I'd hate to think about adding them on to everything else at idle especially given that they're only run one speed and are also most likely to come on at idle. On popular upgrade is to fit an AC Delco alternator that was used on several Saturn models and has a peak output of ~110A. Of course, that also also requires another often overlooked upgrade in that you're now potentially(although not likely) shoving that much current through wiring meant for an alternator with 1/3 the peak capacity. If nothing else, though, it at least gives you enough current to keep everything happy on a cold, dark, rainy night with the radio on(although I'm usually not too happy in the car under those conditions
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As far as power/speed goes, they act the same. They both put out a fraction of their rated output at idle speeds. A 27A gennie might get 12A out at idle. A 90W alternator might get out 25A at idle.
 
Originally Posted by eljefino
Your typical alternator makes 40 amps at idle and 100 driving down the road.


Not disagreeing, but can you provide a citation providing more details?
 
^^^ you likely wont find a citation, since it's a generalization and is impacted by a ton of variables, such as alternator size, engine rpm, etc.. Some vehicles now boost idle RPM if the voltage sags to allow the alternator to compensate for the low.

I have personally attached alternators to OPE engines with DIY regulators and saw similar. I'd personally lower the number from 40 by a smidge, but this whole thread is based on generalization.

OT: When's the last time anyone saw a car with an ammeter in the dash?
 
Originally Posted by eljefino
When Mopar came out with the alternator in 1960 they advertised it as being able to charge at idle, which is something that was more challenging before. That car needed a few amps for the ignition coil and the fuel gauge, and that's about it, unless they turned on some lights!

Your typical alternator makes 40 amps at idle and 100 driving down the road. You need at least 20-25 to run now, including the heated o2 sensors and high pressure fuel pumps. If your rad fan kicks in, you might indeed go over what's supplied.

The human ear is very good at noticing changes in pitch. If you have the HVAC fan running, you'll hear it slow down if there's a voltage drop. Rare. Most likely in traffic with the AC blasting.

There's a "dead zone" in battery chemistry that neither charges nor discharges. If you draw too much, you'll dip through this zone pretty quickly, and your system voltage will sag from the low 14s to the mid-12s. This is why cop cars have heavy duty batteries-- dumb if they never turn them off, but they idle a lot and can start losing power, which comes back when they hit the road again.

Generators put 100% of their current through field brushes. This wears them out faster. They also pretty universally came with vibrating-points type regulators, which were awful, but better than the manual wild-s-guess type you'd see in the 1920s- early 30s.

I've owned two cop cars from different departments and neither of them had special batteries, and one of the cars I had maintenance records from day 1 to retirement. Various brands of battery you can buy off the parts store shelf were installed and many warranty replacements lol.
 
"Modern" alternators are worse than their counterparts from 15-20 years ago; they are intentionally set up to undercharge your battery because it saves some infinitesimally small fraction of an MPG. My wife's Versa killed the OEM battery in 2 years despite the fact that she drives it every day. I checked the charging voltage on the new battery and it's in the 14s for maybe 15-20 seconds at startup but I've seen it around 13.0 at idle. Turning on a heavy electrical load will raise the voltage but that is not a recipe for long battery life. Reading around online tells me that this is, unfortunately, normal.

My old Cavalier and my current Mustang both output a constant voltage in the high 13s to low 14s when running, even at idle.
 
Originally Posted by Yah-Tah-Hey
My understanding is that the alternator light will illuminate if the battery is powering the system. If not, the alternator is supplying the current.

The way I understood it when I looked at Toyota's service literature is that if the voltage regulator isn't sensing voltage at the "sense" terminal, the battery terminal at the alt is disconnected or if the field current in the alt is weak enough to affect output, the charge light will light up.
 
If alternators and charging system controls were the same today as yester year it could be monitored and checked with a volt meter but with the addition of clutches and smart charging system strategies controlled by the ECM you really need a scan tool to properly check a charging system in addition to load testing the system and the battery.

Even resting voltage in the battery can look like the charging system is weak or the battery is on its way out but in fact the charging system is doing it intentionally.
 
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Even resting voltage in the battery can look like the charging system is weak or the battery is on its way out but in fact the charging system is doing it slowly killing your battery intentionally.

FTFY.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Anduril
Originally Posted by StevieC
Even resting voltage in the battery can look like the charging system is weak or the battery is on its way out but in fact the charging system is doing it slowly killing your battery intentionally.

FTFY.

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Originally Posted by StevieC
If alternators and charging system controls were the same today as yester year it could be monitored and checked with a volt meter but with the addition of clutches and smart charging system strategies controlled by the ECM you really need a scan tool to properly check a charging system in addition to load testing the system and the battery.



The clutches are a mechanical device that couples the alternator to the accessory drive between a certain range of speeds and allows it to coast during deceleration events.

Now the PCM-controlled part using algorithms, current sensors and controlled output at the voltage regulator does need a scan tool or scope. Mopar was first to introduce PCM-controlled charging, Toyota and Honda also use the PCM to vary the alternator excitement voltage to affect charging. Honda was a first to install a load sensing device into their electrical system, way before BMW and Mercedes rolled out their convoluted electrical systems.
 
Didn't mean to imply the clutches were controlled by the ECM, just that it adds complexity to the charging system readings along with the smart charging system.

A scan tool is good because it will tell you the commanded duty cycle and that can be checked against what the alternator is actually doing.
 
So true.

Some of these so called "custom high output" alternators rate their "output amperage" at an unrealistic RPM, and often achieve their overblown values with grossly under driven pulleys. And further build up the heat inside the usually unchanged small case units.

Originally Posted by clinebarger
Most so called custom 250 Amp alternators couldn't output 250 Amps if it they were struck by lightning. A lot of Competition Audiophiles around here run two 170/200 Amp alternators, Each having dual Bridge Rectifiers......For a total of 24 Diodes.

Of course there are real 250 Amp alternators with 12 Diode Rectifiers. They run $450 & up.
 
Originally Posted by Rand
Originally Posted by Ed_Flecko
Originally Posted by Rand
yes you are wrong.. but the other guy isnt right either.

O.K., do you want to correct us?

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Ed


already edited in my post didnt mean to post that fast.

and I would like to say what I said may not apply to all models and I dont know much about the difference between generators except alternators produce AC which is then rectified to DC.

Generators also produce AC, but it is rectified to DC by the commutator instead of diodes.
 
^^^ got that backwards. no diodes in a gennie. it's a native DC device. You can feed it 12V and it'll spin!
 
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