Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related?

Originally Posted by JosephA
Greetings all:

I find it rather laughable when I hear people suggest that the 5.7 Hemi lifter/camshaft failures are a rare thing. It is quite common and getting much worse.

My name is Joseph and I have a 2012 Dodge Ram Hemi 5.7 that started the infamous "hemi-tick" at about 90,000 miles give or take. Since it was under warranty at the time, I took it to the local Dodge Servicing department in Sumter SC. They replaced a coil pack, all 16 spark plugs, and supposedly did an intake induction cleaning and fuel system flush. Total cost to me was $988 bucks. That's the most expensive tune-up I've ever seen, especially considering the same services were advertised on their own board for about $300 bucks. Personally, I suspect they did more than that and it's my suspicion that changed out a bad lifter despite the possibility of a bad camshaft lobe. They knew our warranty was about to expire so they did the bare minimum to turn the truck back out to me with the hidden repair they did. I know that Chrysler is telling their service departments to hide the camshaft lifter failures if at all possible in order to minimize public awareness.

To get to my point, at about 104,000 miles, the "hemi-tick" came back and eventually turned into a loud knock. Since the warranty was expired, I tore into the engine myself (I'm a retired AF aircraft mechanic), 36 years of automotive repair, and even paint and body repair. So my mechanical skills are not lacking to say the least, without which I would not have been able to sustain my 1999 Chevy Suburban 5.7 Vortec for as long as I have, and still running strong. Sure she's needed work along the way, but she still goes strong. Just for giggles and fun, I pulled the Suburban's engine 3 years ago and did a complete overhaul, bottom and top. The rings were still solid, cross-hatches still visible, and no ridge around the bore-tips. And the camshaft and lifters looked beautiful, despite neglected oil changes (on the Suburban) at times, and about 225,000 miles. The only degredation I noted were my intake and exhaust valves which were all pitted, so I replaced the valves and lapped them in my garage. To-date, 297,000 miles on my baby and she's still pulling roughly 6,000 pounds of horse trailer (with horses).

I can't say that for my Ram. With only 114,000 miles, the #8 cylinder lifter was destroyed and the roller and needle bearings were missing. Naturally I've got to drop the oil pan to remove all possible debris. Cylinder's 4 and 6 MDS lifters were also damaged as each of its rollers were severely chaffed. I noticed that both MDS lifters for 4 and 6 were not appropriately locked on center as the lock-tabs were twisted to the side, thus causing the rollers to spin somewhat at an angle. This no doubt caused the damage to the lifter rollers for cylinders 4 and 6. Cylinder number 8 however was completely dry with little to no oil, and it's roller is toast, and the camshaft lobe for all 3 cylinders mentioned (passenger side) are destroyed.

WHAT'S CAUSING THE PROBLEM?

This is something I've yet to see anyone explain. Mind you I am a [censored] good troubleshooting mechanic (all thanks to the USAF), and here then is my diagnosis. MDS lifters require oil pressure to expand into the locked position. This temporarily robs the oil supply volume just long enough to lock the lifters into place. Once locked, oil pressure is dispersed evenly respective of the applicable lubed component of the engine. Unfortunately, when you have 1 or more MDS lifters failing to lock, oil pressure is lost to the rest of the engine (not all pressure but enough to cause oil starvation). This would explain why the intake lifters for cylinder's 2 and 8 were nearly dry, while cyilnder's 4 and 6 intake MDS lifters were saturated with oil since both of these lifters failed to lock. When an MDS lifter fails to lock due to internal failure of the PLASTIC (did I mention plastic?) keepers, oil pressure continues to attempt to lock the lifter, which of course never happens due to the failure, and this robs the engine of oil to the rest of the valve-train. Lifters that fail to lock also cause the infamous "Hemi-tick". So NO the Hemi-tick is not a good thing and NO it is not normal.

SOLUTION:

Dump the MDS system. This requires camshaft replacement-upgrade to a non-MDS system, installation for solid lifters with heavier duty rollers, removal and plugging of the MDS oil solenoids, and a PCM flash for MDS deactivation. The 5.7 Hemi is a rather easier engine to work on. I found the fan-clutch to be a little more difficult to remove than usual; that is until I realized that after 2007 (or 2009), the fan clutch is not leftee-loossie, righty-tighty, but rather righty-loosie and lefty-tighty. The rest is not that difficult. You will likely find the exhaust manifold heat-shield bolts broken. I suggest not putting that wasted product back on. Switch out to headers if you choose, or simply leave the exhaust manifold exposed. There is nothing nearby that will be damaged from heat. The driver side exhaust manifold is a little bit pesky to takeoff due to the steering column shaft. Or better yet, leave the exhaust manifold on the heads and disconnect the exhaust pipes from the manifold. I chose to remove them in case my heads needed to be worked.

Summary: The MDS lifters are failing to lock and robbing the engine of oil pressure. This is especially worsened by those who might have a nasty habit of idling the engine too long. The loss of oil pressure, especially at idle, causes oil-starvation to the rest of the valve train of the specific bank (1 - driver side / 2 - passenger side) and causing the lifters to fail at the rollers. Once the rollers are damaged, the camshaft lobes will eventually be wiped out. Lastly, I will not be using 5W-20 as the dealership has been using, and yes (for the record), we've maintained appropriate oil-change maintenance, and yet still suffered catastrophic failure. I will be switching over to 5W-30 synthetic once I've completed the upgrade.

I hope this helps anyone else out there. You do not have to agree, but I'm almost certain my prognosis is 100% percent correct. The dry #8 lifter caused by lost oil pressure due to lifters 4 and 6 MDS lifters hogging oil pressure, is clear indication of what's causing the lifter rollers to fail, and thus leading to unfortunate camshaft destruction. #8 lifter was destroyed due to oil-starvation, and lifters 4 and 6 were damaged due to failing to lock on-center leading to excessive oil supply attempts at locking the lifter into place.


The HEMI failure rate is about 11 per 1,000 manufactured. What is your theory of idle operation cause a greater chance of failure?

Also for some reason your posting style and adding off subject information to strength your point is familiar.
 
Originally Posted by PimTac
Joseph's comment started to sound like a AA meeting intro.

Hello, my name is Joseph and I own a hemi ticker.


obviously this thread has no interest to you, so why post garbage?
 
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by PimTac
Joseph's comment started to sound like a AA meeting intro.

Hello, my name is Joseph and I own a hemi ticker.


obviously this thread has no interest to you, so why post garbage?


Absoulty
I agree burla
 
I've triggered the ignored posters by the looks of it. The "new" member JosephA digs up a 2012 thread to confess about his hemi troubles along with more than we really needed to know.

Probably someone from the Ram forum trying to pike the hornet nest.
 
Originally Posted by PimTac
I've triggered the ignored posters by the looks of it. The "new" member JosephA digs up a 2012 thread to confess about his hemi troubles along with more than we really needed to know.

Probably someone from the Ram forum trying to pike the hornet nest.



My belief is he is a member here with mutiple usernames. Or another banned member who has returned.
 
I've never been banned here, parked once but not banned for adding a y to pimtacks name in jest, wonder who's pulling that chain, and could quite frankly could care less about you and your shilling dude. I mainly came to bring helpful info about the hemi that has helped many people. Many of those people who also posted here, and were met with the same disrespect you have shown me. Why most of them don't bother to post here, eventhough it is thier nature to help folks. Many gf-5 5w20 that met spec are not adequately lubricating hemi's, it isn't a close call. You so called "oil guys" constantly ad hominim attack people instead of making informed statements about the thread at hand. You last garbage statement just another joke coming from you dude.
 
Originally Posted by burla
Thanks for posting your experience bud, we do have a hemi thread attacking the issue from a lubrication stand point, as much as you can anyway. It surely isn't just mds lifters, we are seeing the same thing with the non mds lifters like in the 6.4, it is just fca quality, or lack there of. Check out ram forum for a bunch of guys who have video'd and posted thier findings, and ram forumz as they have done a better job documenting it. I'd research oil, some formulas may help.

LINK.


That is correct. But what's causing the non-mds lifters to fail are failed MDS lifters robbing oil to the non-MDS lifters. I saw this immediately upon removing the passenger side head and lifters. Cylinders 4 and 6 (Bank 2) are MDS lifters, both of which were twisted and not locked on center, and both were saturated in oil. Cylinders 2 and 8 (Bank 2) did not get much oil and were nearly dry, and that's because the 2 MDS lifters on Bank 2 were stuck in the unlocked position, and hogging up Bank 2 oil pressure, thus leaving the other 2 cylinders starved for oil.

Bank 1 showed no signs of oil starvation and yet I've seen reports of both MDS and non-MDS lifters failing on Bank 1.

So the cause of oil starvation is 100% percent caused by twisted MDS lifters with the lock-guide-pin-hole being left open with the lower end of the MDS lifter has twisted and cannot lock into place. So oil is continuously pumped into those twisted MDS lifters which robs the rest of the valve train of oil.

For example, if I run a single water hose from my house. At the end of the hose, I connect 4 additional hoses of equal length and size. All 4 add-on hoses should receive the same amount of water. However, if one of the add on hoses develops a leak, the hose with the leak will receive the most water, thereby reducing water flow to the other 3 non-leaking hoses.

This is what's happening to the valve trains on either Banks 1 or 2. Once an MDS lifter fails to lock, excessive oil pressure continues to flow into the leaking MDS lifter, which robs the other lifters of oil. The more MDS lifters you have that are not properly locking, the more oil pressure will be lost to the rest of the valve train.

Joe
 
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by JosephA
Greetings all:

I find it rather laughable when I hear people suggest that the 5.7 Hemi lifter/camshaft failures are a rare thing. It is quite common and getting much worse.

My name is Joseph and I have a 2012 Dodge Ram Hemi 5.7 that started the infamous "hemi-tick" at about 90,000 miles give or take. Since it was under warranty at the time, I took it to the local Dodge Servicing department in Sumter SC. They replaced a coil pack, all 16 spark plugs, and supposedly did an intake induction cleaning and fuel system flush. Total cost to me was $988 bucks. That's the most expensive tune-up I've ever seen, especially considering the same services were advertised on their own board for about $300 bucks. Personally, I suspect they did more than that and it's my suspicion that changed out a bad lifter despite the possibility of a bad camshaft lobe. They knew our warranty was about to expire so they did the bare minimum to turn the truck back out to me with the hidden repair they did. I know that Chrysler is telling their service departments to hide the camshaft lifter failures if at all possible in order to minimize public awareness.

To get to my point, at about 104,000 miles, the "hemi-tick" came back and eventually turned into a loud knock. Since the warranty was expired, I tore into the engine myself (I'm a retired AF aircraft mechanic), 36 years of automotive repair, and even paint and body repair. So my mechanical skills are not lacking to say the least, without which I would not have been able to sustain my 1999 Chevy Suburban 5.7 Vortec for as long as I have, and still running strong. Sure she's needed work along the way, but she still goes strong. Just for giggles and fun, I pulled the Suburban's engine 3 years ago and did a complete overhaul, bottom and top. The rings were still solid, cross-hatches still visible, and no ridge around the bore-tips. And the camshaft and lifters looked beautiful, despite neglected oil changes (on the Suburban) at times, and about 225,000 miles. The only degredation I noted were my intake and exhaust valves which were all pitted, so I replaced the valves and lapped them in my garage. To-date, 297,000 miles on my baby and she's still pulling roughly 6,000 pounds of horse trailer (with horses).

I can't say that for my Ram. With only 114,000 miles, the #8 cylinder lifter was destroyed and the roller and needle bearings were missing. Naturally I've got to drop the oil pan to remove all possible debris. Cylinder's 4 and 6 MDS lifters were also damaged as each of its rollers were severely chaffed. I noticed that both MDS lifters for 4 and 6 were not appropriately locked on center as the lock-tabs were twisted to the side, thus causing the rollers to spin somewhat at an angle. This no doubt caused the damage to the lifter rollers for cylinders 4 and 6. Cylinder number 8 however was completely dry with little to no oil, and it's roller is toast, and the camshaft lobe for all 3 cylinders mentioned (passenger side) are destroyed.

WHAT'S CAUSING THE PROBLEM?

This is something I've yet to see anyone explain. Mind you I am a [censored] good troubleshooting mechanic (all thanks to the USAF), and here then is my diagnosis. MDS lifters require oil pressure to expand into the locked position. This temporarily robs the oil supply volume just long enough to lock the lifters into place. Once locked, oil pressure is dispersed evenly respective of the applicable lubed component of the engine. Unfortunately, when you have 1 or more MDS lifters failing to lock, oil pressure is lost to the rest of the engine (not all pressure but enough to cause oil starvation). This would explain why the intake lifters for cylinder's 2 and 8 were nearly dry, while cyilnder's 4 and 6 intake MDS lifters were saturated with oil since both of these lifters failed to lock. When an MDS lifter fails to lock due to internal failure of the PLASTIC (did I mention plastic?) keepers, oil pressure continues to attempt to lock the lifter, which of course never happens due to the failure, and this robs the engine of oil to the rest of the valve-train. Lifters that fail to lock also cause the infamous "Hemi-tick". So NO the Hemi-tick is not a good thing and NO it is not normal.

SOLUTION:

Dump the MDS system. This requires camshaft replacement-upgrade to a non-MDS system, installation for solid lifters with heavier duty rollers, removal and plugging of the MDS oil solenoids, and a PCM flash for MDS deactivation. The 5.7 Hemi is a rather easier engine to work on. I found the fan-clutch to be a little more difficult to remove than usual; that is until I realized that after 2007 (or 2009), the fan clutch is not leftee-loossie, righty-tighty, but rather righty-loosie and lefty-tighty. The rest is not that difficult. You will likely find the exhaust manifold heat-shield bolts broken. I suggest not putting that wasted product back on. Switch out to headers if you choose, or simply leave the exhaust manifold exposed. There is nothing nearby that will be damaged from heat. The driver side exhaust manifold is a little bit pesky to takeoff due to the steering column shaft. Or better yet, leave the exhaust manifold on the heads and disconnect the exhaust pipes from the manifold. I chose to remove them in case my heads needed to be worked.

Summary: The MDS lifters are failing to lock and robbing the engine of oil pressure. This is especially worsened by those who might have a nasty habit of idling the engine too long. The loss of oil pressure, especially at idle, causes oil-starvation to the rest of the valve train of the specific bank (1 - driver side / 2 - passenger side) and causing the lifters to fail at the rollers. Once the rollers are damaged, the camshaft lobes will eventually be wiped out. Lastly, I will not be using 5W-20 as the dealership has been using, and yes (for the record), we've maintained appropriate oil-change maintenance, and yet still suffered catastrophic failure. I will be switching over to 5W-30 synthetic once I've completed the upgrade.

I hope this helps anyone else out there. You do not have to agree, but I'm almost certain my prognosis is 100% percent correct. The dry #8 lifter caused by lost oil pressure due to lifters 4 and 6 MDS lifters hogging oil pressure, is clear indication of what's causing the lifter rollers to fail, and thus leading to unfortunate camshaft destruction. #8 lifter was destroyed due to oil-starvation, and lifters 4 and 6 were damaged due to failing to lock on-center leading to excessive oil supply attempts at locking the lifter into place.


The HEMI failure rate is about 11 per 1,000 manufactured. What is your theory of idle operation cause a greater chance of failure?

Also for some reason your posting style and adding off subject information to strength your point is familiar.


My style of posting looks familiar. LOL Well it's me...Joseph if that rings a bell.

If a Hemi engine has MDS lifters failing to lock, oil pressure is wasted on those lifters which robs the rest of the valve train of oil. So idling the engine especially with lost oil pressure towards failed MDS lifters is making the problem much worse.

Joe
 
Originally Posted by OilUzer
@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?


I've red that red line helps the engine. But to me, with solid non-mds, 5W-30 should work just fine. IMHO, non weighted engine oil is insufficient to lucubrate a high-performance engine.
 
Originally Posted by ofelas
Joe, the non MDS engines have similar issues.



Interesting. I've not heard of any non-MDS Hemi's losing camshafts and lifters. I spoke to one of the mechanics at the local Dodge dealership and he told me that only MDS hemi's are failing in the RAM and the Charger. I've heard that some of the Durango's also utilize the MDS system, and so I've read of failures happening on those as well.

To-date, no NON-MDS system hemi has suffered these failures.

Joe
 
This makes me intensely curious about what grade of oil is ideal to ensure the Cummins lifters are properly pumped up.

I use 15w40 Amsoil AME, perhaps I should try Rotella T6 5w40.

I believe Dodge recommends 5w40.
 
Originally Posted by JosephA
Originally Posted by OilUzer
@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?


I've red that red line helps the engine. But to me, with solid non-mds, 5W-30 should work just fine. IMHO, non weighted engine oil is insufficient to lucubrate a high-performance engine.


So thinking doesn't come into play with us who have dealt with this since 2010 and have been posting about since 2011. Many different guys well over 50, many different strategies, many different oils, many different weights including 0w40 PUP in a mds engine. Some better then others, but trust me nobody prefers to buy redline 5w30, it is the most expensive oil of all of them tested, but if you look at the formula there is a reason it is working better then others more then just visc, high moly, high zinc, polar base oil, brached chain lubrication of pao. Interesting thing is 10w30 redline has no vii's and yet 5w30 redline is better at killing the ticks, they must use a different base oil setup with their 5w30, noted by the extra hths of that product, which yes I do realize is viscosity but only part of the picture. So "we" believe viscosity does play a part and a significant one, but so does all of the rest of the formula. So main point, try other oils first, many of them, maybe one will work and that would be cool. But keep in back of your mind, well I tried 3 oils and if none of those worked, try redline 5w30 with a synthetic filter. It has helped many of hemis. If I had to make a guess at what other oils had half way decent chance at tick killing there have been a couple, qsud and if you look at moly level 160 makes sense, PUP 0w40 seams to be many guys second choice to redline 5w30 in the mds engine that is ticking and again moly level over 250 makes sense, I can't think of others off hand, but if I was avoiding paying redline dollars and wanted to kill my ticking engine I'd start there. Many uoa's on the 0w40 PUP on board, most of the time the visc ends up in the 11's cSt, so I wouldn't worry about it being too thick even in a mds engine, many guys are running it w/o any issues or any cel's.
 
Originally Posted by OilUzer
@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?


It can, it does, it goes way past assuming it does, but it is also one particular redline formula over the others, 5w30 redline. Link to another members video's documenting as much,
redline 5w30 tested against many other oils.

And specifically when I tried redline 10w30 the tick came back, not as harsh as before using redline, but I video'd that as well. Once again, many people are documenting this, at some point maybe the oil guys should consider this is a thing. believe your ears.. Whatever the dealer used had my trucking ticking at a 10 rating on a tick scale, redline 10w30 had it ticking about a 3, redline 5w30 has the engine butter smooth for going on 7-8 years. redline 5w30 is hemi honey for sure.

my truck redline 10w30



redline 5w30
 
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by JosephA
Originally Posted by OilUzer
@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?


I've red that red line helps the engine. But to me, with solid non-mds, 5W-30 should work just fine. IMHO, non weighted engine oil is insufficient to lucubrate a high-performance engine.


So thinking doesn't come into play with us who have dealt with this since 2010 and have been posting about since 2011. Many different guys well over 50, many different strategies, many different oils, many different weights including 0w40 PUP in a mds engine. Some better then others, but trust me nobody prefers to buy redline 5w30, it is the most expensive oil of all of them tested, but if you look at the formula there is a reason it is working better then others more then just visc, high moly, high zinc, polar base oil, brached chain lubrication of pao. Interesting thing is 10w30 redline has no vii's and yet 5w30 redline is better at killing the ticks, they must use a different base oil setup with their 5w30, noted by the extra hths of that product, which yes I do realize is viscosity but only part of the picture. So "we" believe viscosity does play a part and a significant one, but so does all of the rest of the formula. So main point, try other oils first, many of them, maybe one will work and that would be cool. But keep in back of your mind, well I tried 3 oils and if none of those worked, try redline 5w30 with a synthetic filter. It has helped many of hemis. If I had to make a guess at what other oils had half way decent chance at tick killing there have been a couple, qsud and if you look at moly level 160 makes sense, PUP 0w40 seams to be many guys second choice to redline 5w30 in the mds engine that is ticking and again moly level over 250 makes sense, I can't think of others off hand, but if I was avoiding paying redline dollars and wanted to kill my ticking engine I'd start there. Many uoa's on the 0w40 PUP on board, most of the time the visc ends up in the 11's cSt, so I wouldn't worry about it being too thick even in a mds engine, many guys are running it w/o any issues or any cel's.



Redlines base oil is not polar. What does a friction modifier have to do with wear?
 
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by JosephA
Originally Posted by OilUzer
@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?


I've red that red line helps the engine. But to me, with solid non-mds, 5W-30 should work just fine. IMHO, non weighted engine oil is insufficient to lucubrate a high-performance engine.


So thinking doesn't come into play with us who have dealt with this since 2010 and have been posting about since 2011. Many different guys well over 50, many different strategies, many different oils, many different weights including 0w40 PUP in a mds engine. Some better then others, but trust me nobody prefers to buy redline 5w30, it is the most expensive oil of all of them tested, but if you look at the formula there is a reason it is working better then others more then just visc, high moly, high zinc, polar base oil, brached chain lubrication of pao. Interesting thing is 10w30 redline has no vii's and yet 5w30 redline is better at killing the ticks, they must use a different base oil setup with their 5w30, noted by the extra hths of that product, which yes I do realize is viscosity but only part of the picture. So "we" believe viscosity does play a part and a significant one, but so does all of the rest of the formula. So main point, try other oils first, many of them, maybe one will work and that would be cool. But keep in back of your mind, well I tried 3 oils and if none of those worked, try redline 5w30 with a synthetic filter. It has helped many of hemis. If I had to make a guess at what other oils had half way decent chance at tick killing there have been a couple, qsud and if you look at moly level 160 makes sense, PUP 0w40 seams to be many guys second choice to redline 5w30 in the mds engine that is ticking and again moly level over 250 makes sense, I can't think of others off hand, but if I was avoiding paying redline dollars and wanted to kill my ticking engine I'd start there. Many uoa's on the 0w40 PUP on board, most of the time the visc ends up in the 11's cSt, so I wouldn't worry about it being too thick even in a mds engine, many guys are running it w/o any issues or any cel's.



Redlines base oil is not polar. What does a friction modifier have to do with wear?



What does wear have to do with hemi tick? Where you talking to me?

as for polarity.. from BITOG
link

2) Lubricity: Polarity also causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules tend to line up on the metal surface creating a film which requires additional energy (load) to wipe them off. The result is a stronger film which translates into higher lubricity and lower energy consumption in lubricant applications.
 
Originally Posted by JosephA
Originally Posted by ofelas
Joe, the non MDS engines have similar issues.



Interesting. I've not heard of any non-MDS Hemi's losing camshafts and lifters. I spoke to one of the mechanics at the local Dodge dealership and he told me that only MDS hemi's are failing in the RAM and the Charger. I've heard that some of the Durango's also utilize the MDS system, and so I've read of failures happening on those as well.

To-date, no NON-MDS system hemi has suffered these failures.

Joe


Here's a 6.1L (non-MDS) with the same failure:
https://www.lxforums.com/board/the-...ter-failure-2010-6-1-srt-challenger.html

And another, this one in a 2009 SRT8 Grand Cherokee:
https://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums...dealer-service/194594-broken-lifter.html

It's not an MDS-exclusive issue, it's simply that most engines are MDS, so that's going to be the largest cross-section, and thus the largest group affected. It also seems significantly less common on the SRT engines (my dealer has never had to do lifters on an SRT mill), which my theory is, ties into them having heavier valve springs. I think once they get some miles on them, the springs weaken enough to allow a bit of float, which hammers the needle bearings in the rollers, which causes them to fail. An oil with extremely high levels of anti-wear additives may be effective in mitigating this somewhat, though it certainly doesn't "fix" the problem.

I also can't see an MDS lifter failing "open" providing enough oil bypass that it starves the lifters on the other cylinders. The biggest controlled leak is the side leakage on the crankshaft bearings, which would dwarf any leakage on a lifter. If the leak was big enough to cause a loss of oil pressure, that would be observable in the SRT menu for example, but from the accounts I've read, folks with the tick and failed lifters still had normal oil pressure.

Another theory is that there may be a design issue where there is simply insufficient supply at idle to the lifters (all of them), which may cause them to stick every so slightly in their bores. Combined with weak stock springs, you create a situation like float where the needle bearings get hammered by the lobe, causing the roller to stop rolling and this results in rapid lobe/lifter failure. This could of course affect both MDS and non-MDS engines.

There have been several theories floated, and of course the vast majority of engines never experience the issue, so it may just be inconsistent parts quality from the manufacturer of the lifters as well.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by JosephA
Originally Posted by ofelas
Joe, the non MDS engines have similar issues.



Interesting. I've not heard of any non-MDS Hemi's losing camshafts and lifters. I spoke to one of the mechanics at the local Dodge dealership and he told me that only MDS hemi's are failing in the RAM and the Charger. I've heard that some of the Durango's also utilize the MDS system, and so I've read of failures happening on those as well.

To-date, no NON-MDS system hemi has suffered these failures.

Joe


Here's a 6.1L (non-MDS) with the same failure:
https://www.lxforums.com/board/the-...ter-failure-2010-6-1-srt-challenger.html

And another, this one in a 2009 SRT8 Grand Cherokee:
https://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums...dealer-service/194594-broken-lifter.html

It's not an MDS-exclusive issue, it's simply that most engines are MDS, so that's going to be the largest cross-section, and thus the largest group affected. It also seems significantly less common on the SRT engines (my dealer has never had to do lifters on an SRT mill), which my theory is, ties into them having heavier valve springs. I think once they get some miles on them, the springs weaken enough to allow a bit of float, which hammers the needle bearings in the rollers, which causes them to fail. An oil with extremely high levels of anti-wear additives may be effective in mitigating this somewhat, though it certainly doesn't "fix" the problem.

I also can't see an MDS lifter failing "open" providing enough oil bypass that it starves the lifters on the other cylinders. The biggest controlled leak is the side leakage on the crankshaft bearings, which would dwarf any leakage on a lifter. If the leak was big enough to cause a loss of oil pressure, that would be observable in the SRT menu for example, but from the accounts I've read, folks with the tick and failed lifters still had normal oil pressure.

Another theory is that there may be a design issue where there is simply insufficient supply at idle to the lifters (all of them), which may cause them to stick every so slightly in their bores. Combined with weak stock springs, you create a situation like float where the needle bearings get hammered by the lobe, causing the roller to stop rolling and this results in rapid lobe/lifter failure. This could of course affect both MDS and non-MDS engines.

There have been several theories floated, and of course the vast majority of engines never experience the issue, so it may just be inconsistent parts quality from the manufacturer of the lifters as well.


I could be wrong, but the 6.1 in the Challenger came with MDS, but was unavailable for the 6.4 Hemi until about 2011. So I believe the first one was an 6.1 MDS engine which became available in 2009'ish.

The Grand Cherokee I believe also came with MDS around 2005, so the second link posted might have been an MDS engine. I might have missed any comment or post from the provided links wherein they specifically mentioned if their engine was either an MDS or non-MDS engine.

I can see your theory as well, and it is sound. And you might be right. But to me, if that were the case, I would have seen lifters failing on Bank 1 and not limited solely to bank 2 (again on my engine). The intake lifter for cylinder #2 was slightly wet, and had minimal chaffing. The MDS intake lifter on #4 was twisted and unlocked, with the locking pin shifted to the left side within the lifter. It was soaked heavily with engine oil. The intake lifter for #6 was also shifted in the unlocked position and its locking pin was off to the side as well (off-center), and it too was soaked in engine oil. Then finally, the destroyed lifter on #8 was nearly bone dry and not even the springs were wet. That thus told me that cylinders #2 and #8 intake lifters were not getting enough oil, meanwhile the 2 MDS lifters (#4 and #6) were soaked in engine oil. So careful examination seems to suggest insufficient oil to the non MDS lifters on Bank 2, while more than ample oil on the MDS lifters (Bank 2). This is why my theory concluded that the reason for failure had to do with the MDS lifters robbing engine oil pressure just on the bank 2 valve train system. I did not mean to suggest that the rest of the engine suffered oil starvation; only the valve train system will likely be impacted when an MDS lifter fails to lock. An unlocked lifter when it should be locked will lead to wasted oil pressure on the specific MDS lifter, and thereby reduce the amount of oil pressure to the rest of the valve train on the same bank. Keep in mind this does not mean that the rest of the engine would suffer oil loss.

I will have to look at the plumbing galley for the hemi engine. I know the oil pump is at the bottom and a tube feeds Bank 1, and a separate tube feeds bank 2. The first valve train to receive oil is from the first cylinder to the last cylinder of the applicable banks. Otherwise, it makes no sense trying to understand why 2 lifters on Bank 2 were heavily soaked with oil, but the other 2 lifters (intake lifters) were nearly dry.

Lastly, I have motored this engine at idle with the valve covers off, and I saw the same results. Oil oozed out near the center of the head on Bank 2 (Passenger side), but nothing on Cylinder 8, and very little on cylinder 2.

At the same time, I can see a valve train issue with soft springs, leading to lifter float, and that of course would cause roller damage. I can only surmise that the reason Chrysler engineers chose to use softer spring loads is to minimize the valve seat stress on the aluminum heads, and also decrease drag in order to enhance fuel efficiency.

Maybe this is all the result of flawed lifters from what ever country they were manufactured. But I'm not convinced this is the case because we would see random lifters dropping out all over the engine, and impacting nearly every hemi engine. Thus, I believe this is primarily limited to the MDS engines, and possibly some non-MDS engines suffering failure. But this I am convinced of. So far, all who have upgarded their hemi's to the Comp-Camshaft, Hellcat lifters, oil plugs, and ECM flash, have not had a repeat of camshaft or lifter failure.

Was it because MDS was deleted? That seems to be the case, IMHO. Then again, it might be as you have suggested....poorly designed lifters using cheap parts. If it had anything to do with the valve springs, I would assume we'd see more lifter failures even with the upgraded lifters and camshafts. So far, I have not read of any upgraded engine failures.

Joe
 
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