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Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: RDY4WAR] #5090826 04/29/19 04:43 PM
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oil_film_movies Offline
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Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Is there a white paper on this? I'm bored and need something to read.
https://www.swri.org/sites/default/files/sequence-iva-test.pdf
Seems none of the specific types of engines used in the many tests I've seen actually spec xw20 oils, yet they run the tests with 0w16, 0w20, 5w20 oils.

Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: oil_film_movies] #5090836 04/29/19 04:53 PM
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bbhero Offline
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Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
The Sequence IVA, part of SN, is run on a '94 Nissan KA24E 4 cylinder spec'ed for 5w30. 0w20 and 5w20 oils qualify on this engine. Other tests run Buick V6's and other engines meant to run a 30 weight too.



There we go ^^^^^^^^^

And given it's a naturally aspirated motor, non GDI, no turbo boosted motor, not being driven hard on a track... And driven by a nice older man... The 5w20 is just fine.


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 Dexos1 Gen 2 5w30 Wix 57356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: oil_film_movies] #5090842 04/29/19 04:58 PM
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RDY4WAR Online Content OP
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Posts: 658
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Is there a white paper on this? I'm bored and need something to read.
https://www.swri.org/sites/default/files/sequence-iva-test.pdf
Seems none of the specific types of engines used in the many tests I've seen actually spec xw20 oils, yet they run the tests with 0w16, 0w20, 5w20 oils.



I already have that one. smile

I was wondering if there's one with results.


"He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod." - Compressions 9:1
Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: RDY4WAR] #5090901 04/29/19 06:14 PM
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Gokhan Offline
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[Linked Image]

(Image courtesy of 4WD)

In the past, they advertised the virtually VII-less 5W-20 as being thicker than a premium conventional 10W-40 loaded with VII.

It looks like not much has changed today:

M1 vanilla 5W-20:
HTHSV = 2.75
Base-oil viscosity = 1.91
VII content = 4.2%

M1 vanilla 5W-30:
HTHSV = 3.1
Base-oil viscosity = 1.77
VII content = 7.8%

M1 EP 0W-20 (PAO-based):
HTHSV = 2.7
Base-oil viscosity = 1.92
VII content = 3.8%

So, among the three M1 oils, the PAO-based M1 EP 0W-20 has the thickest base oil and least viscosity-index improver (VII). That's the power of the the high-viscosity-index PAO base oil. M1 5W-30 is the worst among the three as far as the base-oil viscosity and VII content is concerned.

The base-oil viscosity is probably more important than the HTHSV in TGDI engines or engines with fuel-dilution problems.

For example, see this Nissan paper on timing-chain wear. They compared a 0W-16 (HTHSV = 2.3 cP) to a 0W-20 (HTHSV = 2.6 cP) and found out that the timing-chain wear is controlled by the base-oil viscosity, not the HTHSV:

Development of low-viscosity API SN 0W-16 fuel-saving engine oil considering chain-wear performance
(Nissan study)

Excerpt: "Second, it was found that the base oil viscosity and molybdenum dithiocarbamate (MoDTC) had a significant effect on chain wear in rig testing that simulated silent chain wear. For the same base oil viscosity, the new oil maintains the same oil film thickness under high surface pressure."

PPPP 5W-30:
HTHSV = 3.1
Base-oil viscosity = 2.47
VII content = 2.3%

That's the power of GTL used wisely. The same doesn't hold for the Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (PUPPP).

PYB 5W-30:
HTHSV = 3.0
Base-oil viscosity = 1.82
VII content = 6.5%

The conventional Pennzoil 5W-30 outperforms the synthetic M1 5W-30 in base-oil viscosity and VII.

Estimated base-oil dynamic viscosit... improver (VII) content of selected oils

So, M1 5W-20 is fine unless your car really cares about the 10% higher HTHSV of M1 5W-30. It very likely doesn't.

If you need a thicker oil, go with the PPPP 5W-30. If you need something even thicker, go with an ACEA C3 5W-30 or something even thicker. Otherwise, there is no reason to worry.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: RDY4WAR] #5091023 04/29/19 08:34 PM
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gfh77665 Offline
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Dang, a $3 bottle of STP would be a real cheap and easy way to end the lingering doubt.

Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: gfh77665] #5091038 04/29/19 08:51 PM
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RDY4WAR Online Content OP
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Posts: 658
Originally Posted by gfh77665
Dang, a $3 bottle of STP would be a real cheap and easy way to end the lingering doubt.


I'd honestly dump the oil before I'd put that bottle of wax in there.


"He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod." - Compressions 9:1
Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: RDY4WAR] #5091085 04/29/19 09:46 PM
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cjrciadtster Offline
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I plan to go from 5w30 Pennzoil Gold to PUP 5w20 in my ride soon. With the leftover oil during the drain, I expect the UOA to read close to light a 5w30 (mid 9ish cst) at 100c.

Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: Gokhan] #5091097 04/29/19 10:00 PM
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bbhero Offline
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
[Linked Image]

(Image courtesy of 4WD)

In the past, they advertised the virtually VII-less 5W-20 as being thicker than a premium conventional 10W-40 loaded with VII.

It looks like not much has changed today:

M1 vanilla 5W-20:
HTHSV = 2.75
Base-oil viscosity = 1.91
VII content = 4.2%

M1 vanilla 5W-30:
HTHSV = 3.1
Base-oil viscosity = 1.77
VII content = 7.8%

M1 EP 0W-20 (PAO-based):
HTHSV = 2.7
Base-oil viscosity = 1.92
VII content = 3.8%

So, among the three M1 oils, the PAO-based M1 EP 0W-20 has the thickest base oil and least viscosity-index improver (VII). That's the power of the the high-viscosity-index PAO base oil. M1 5W-30 is the worst among the three as far as the base-oil viscosity and VII content is concerned.

The base-oil viscosity is probably more important than the HTHSV in TGDI engines or engines with fuel-dilution problems.

For example, see this Nissan paper on timing-chain wear. They compared a 0W-16 (HTHSV = 2.3 cP) to a 0W-20 (HTHSV = 2.6 cP) and found out that the timing-chain wear is controlled by the base-oil viscosity, not the HTHSV:

Development of low-viscosity API SN 0W-16 fuel-saving engine oil considering chain-wear performance
(Nissan study)

Excerpt: "Second, it was found that the base oil viscosity and molybdenum dithiocarbamate (MoDTC) had a significant effect on chain wear in rig testing that simulated silent chain wear. For the same base oil viscosity, the new oil maintains the same oil film thickness under high surface pressure."

PPPP 5W-30:
HTHSV = 3.1
Base-oil viscosity = 2.47
VII content = 2.3%

That's the power of GTL used wisely. The same doesn't hold for the Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (PUPPP).

PYB 5W-30:
HTHSV = 3.0
Base-oil viscosity = 1.82
VII content = 6.5%

The conventional Pennzoil 5W-30 outperforms the synthetic M1 5W-30 in base-oil viscosity and VII.

Estimated base-oil dynamic viscosit... improver (VII) content of selected oils

So, M1 5W-20 is fine unless your car really cares about the 10% higher HTHSV of M1 5W-30. It very likely doesn't.

If you need a thicker oil, go with the PPPP 5W-30. If you need something even thicker, go with an ACEA C3 5W-30 or something even thicker. Otherwise, there is no reason to worry.


^^^^^^^^^^^^
This validates in my mind what tig1 has stated. Many times in fact.. And that the need for new standard testing for viscosity came about. SAE J300...

His old school Mobil 1 was likely a legitimate 5w30... And performed great in his vehicles. Due to what gokhan makes clear here too.


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 Dexos1 Gen 2 5w30 Wix 57356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: Nia] #5091320 04/30/19 07:55 AM
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...


1994 BMW 530i, 246K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 420K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 281K
Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: RDY4WAR] #5091370 04/30/19 09:04 AM
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oil_film_movies Offline
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Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Is there a white paper on this? I'm bored and need something to read.
https://www.swri.org/sites/default/files/sequence-iva-test.pdf
Seems none of the specific types of engines used in the many tests I've seen actually spec xw20 oils, yet they run the tests with 0w16, 0w20, 5w20 oils.



I already have that one. smile

I was wondering if there's one with results.


Here is Ravenol's ultra-thin 0w-16 getting a 24 micron score (90 is the max allowed). They do mislead with the "0w20 gets 90 score" pictured, so ignore their marketing lies, as a good 0w20 can be around 20 microns on this test in reality.
Therefore, a 0w16 HTHS 2.4 thin oil (thinner than 5w20 HTHS 2.7 oil) still can run in a 1994 Nissan 4-cyl spec'ed for 5w30 !!! Plus it passes all the other SN tests.

ravenoliva.JPG
Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: bbhero] #5091448 04/30/19 10:35 AM
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Posts: 9,894
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Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: tig1] #5091466 04/30/19 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by tig1
I used M1 5-20 in 1978 in my 1978 Dodge Slant 6 which called for 10-30 or 10-40. The engine purred like a kitten.


Blasphemy! Get out, evil doer!

/s

I can't believe there's a 5-page thread about a 5w-20/30 mixup.


2004 Mercury Mountaineer 4.6 M1 High Mileage 10w-40 (Summer)
2001 Ford Focus 2.0 Zetec Pennzoil Euro L 5w-30
Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: RDY4WAR] #5091515 04/30/19 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Originally Posted by gfh77665
Dang, a $3 bottle of STP would be a real cheap and easy way to end the lingering doubt.


I'd honestly dump the oil before I'd put that bottle of wax in there.


I does not bother me at all if you want to waste perfectly good oil. Knock yourself out.

Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: gfh77665] #5091579 04/30/19 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gfh77665
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Originally Posted by gfh77665
Dang, a $3 bottle of STP would be a real cheap and easy way to end the lingering doubt.


I'd honestly dump the oil before I'd put that bottle of wax in there.


It does not bother me at all if you want to waste perfectly good oil. Knock yourself out.


This


2004 Corolla 134989
Out: EDGE EP 5W-30 Bosch 3311 7156 Miles
In: Havoline Pro DS 10w-30 Purolator PureOne 3-14-19 129693
2006 Duramax 76356
Out: T6 5W-40 M1-303
In: T6 5W-40 XG9100 73705 4-22-18
Re: 5w-20 accidentally used instead of 5w-30 in '05 Altima [Re: 4WD] #5092055 04/30/19 07:37 PM
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bbhero Offline
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Originally Posted by 4WD

... And driven by a nice older man... .


70 years young …

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...9DDFBB9840C6940F769&&FORM=VRDGAR

https://www.goupstate.com/sports/20190429/john-force-still-bringing-true-grit-to-nhra-funny-car[/quote]


Look... 4wd... I have had people "older" that I have taken care of who were 100 years old plus.. one who bless her heart made it to 112 years old... She was the 7th oldest person in this country.. older is a statement of fact. Hades.. I'm "older" too in relation to young people in their teens LOL

And yes I know John Force is up there in his age... He is still doing pretty well in NHRA. I'm glad he survived that terrible accident just a couple of years ago... That was scary when I saw it happen.


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 Dexos1 Gen 2 5w30 Wix 57356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
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