Duke Crash

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I've heard of the seat track issue with Cessna's. I've not heard of Beech having those kinds of issues

Dukes were not a very common airplane; I'm not sure I've ever seen one in real life.

Sure looks like the pilot yanked back on the yoke. Late 50's ... maybe a heart issue?
 
Quote from the Wiki entry on the Duke: "should pilots have the joy of single-engine operation, they will be up against the highest rudder-force of any piston twin - 150 pounds at Vmc - which happens to be the maximum the FAA allows."

We will know more at some point. In the meantime condolences. It has been a tough month or so for GA.

The Duke is a beautiful airplane.
 
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... but that pitch attitude on takeoff was awfully high. Looked to be 25-30 degrees ...


Can anyone tell if his gear was extended or retracted? I looked a couple of more times, and can't tell.

Surely the gear on a Duke can't cycle that fast.

I wonder if he yanked back on the yoke in response to an un planned or badly timed gear retraction?

I thought the wiki article was interesting - didn't know they dragged the Duke down to keep it from outrunning the King Air.
 
Wow! Footage like in the OP and in Bill's post make me never want to set foot in a twin engine light GA plane!

Do all twins possess this trait or is it limited to prop driven or piston engine planes?
 
Originally Posted by The_Eric
Wow! Footage like in the OP and in Bill's post make me never want to set foot in a twin engine light GA plane!

Do all twins possess this trait or is it limited to prop driven or piston engine planes?


One issue with a lot of the little piston twins is that the certification requirements for climbing with an engine inoperative is pretty minimal (and approaching nothing). And that's if the plane is flown perfectly and performing like-new. It would be pretty easy for an inexperienced (or even experienced) GA pilot to have a low altitude engine failure and then get little to no climb ability. Then they panic and either stall and crash, or "Vmc Roll" and crash.

Airliners have so much thrust at low altitude that it's usually never an issue. (And turbines are more reliable.)
 
Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by The_Eric
Wow! Footage like in the OP and in Bill's post make me never want to set foot in a twin engine light GA plane!

Do all twins possess this trait or is it limited to prop driven or piston engine planes?


One issue with a lot of the little piston twins is that the certification requirements for climbing with an engine inoperative is pretty minimal (and approaching nothing). And that's if the plane is flown perfectly and performing like-new. It would be pretty easy for an inexperienced (or even experienced) GA pilot to have a low altitude engine failure and then get little to no climb ability. Then they panic and either stall and crash, or "Vmc Roll" and crash.

Airliners have so much thrust at low altitude that it's usually never an issue. (And turbines are more reliable.)


In which case the piston twin pilot must recognize that continued flight isn't possible, pull back the good engine and land in the best forced landing site he can see.
The certification requirements for light twin performance in single engine operation are clear and in the case of the Baron are handily exceeded.
IIRC, a Baron at MGW will climb at 400 fpm on one, so decent single engine performance.
Exceed the legal gross (common if illegal) or fail to fly precisely and the aircraft might depart into a condition no pilot can get it out of.
I'd guess that more serious injuries and fatalities have resulted from pilots trying to make it back to a paved runway than by pilots accepting the best forced landing site they could see.
 
The second engine in a light twin serves to get you to the scene of the crash...

I did my ATP ride in a Piper Seminole. On a cold winter day in Richmond, it had a terrible climb rate on one engine (naturally, I had to do some single engine work as part of the ride).

Not an easy airplane to fly and it's one of the better twins.
 
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
I'm gathering that "twin engines = safer" is completely not a rule of thumb.


I watched an Embry Riddle seminole twin roll over just like the video, however it was during engine failure training at altitude. That single event led me to believe that piston twins carry a different and significant set of risks. We hear all sorts of aviation comments, many of which are based in truth, but to see it happen is another matter.

I'm 100% convinced that general aviation is risky, and there are many things pilots do that unnecessarily add to the risk.

Some accident causes that generally seem avoidable:

1) Maneuvering at low altitude
2) VRR to IMC
3) Fuel exhaustion
4) CFIT (controlled flight into terrain)
5) Loss of control in flight
8) Experimental, amateur built (6x risk)

Many pilots like to learn from the mistakes of others. Has it helped? I think so.

Horsing around on takeoff and landing is asking for trouble. I was taught the secret to good landings was to fly stabilized approaches and I believe the same goes for takeoff. Professional airshow pilots do amazing stunts, but they seldom stall an aircraft on takeoff due to rapid pull up with insufficient airspeed or lose control in the pattern. Instead, they go for airspeed first.

Last week, I lost a friend in a Wheeler Express crash. He was a great pilot and instructor. Taught a safety seminar too. Unfortunately, the "experimental, amateur built" thing got him. He was moving a plane for a friend. We don't know what happened, but we suspect the airplane had a major failure in cruise flight, in good weather, and became uncontrollable.
 
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The Eric

Twins have a minimum control speed on one engine. Below that speed they will no longer be able to maintain directional control. Just as with a boat moving through its *fluid* speed provides some dynamic stability. Below that it all goes wonky beyond the level the pilot can control it. I would add one other light twin to the Baron that I'm comfortable in (I don't have one) during that transition - the 310. Engine failure has to be practiced well and often. It should be a straight ahead decision much more often, more people would be alive.

Edit - I should say that this is a one engine running phenom. The aircraft is always going to tend to roll into the dead engine, some more than others. Hope I haven't provided you with more confusion.
 
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Cujet


I'm 100% convinced that general aviation is risky, and there are many things pilots do that unnecessarily add to the risk.

It's a matter of degree isn't it. Millions of hours flown safely every year in GA. Billions of miles driven in cars each year with 30K+ casualties, deaths I mean. (Remember to back out the motorcycle deaths from the car wreck statistic). I didn't know Experimentals were 6x the accident rate of GA. Terrible. But to then extend the " OMG we're all gonna die" dynamic to all of GA is not fair. Two different animals. Sincerely sorry to hear about your friend. Those are hard days.
 
Originally Posted by DeepFriar
Cujet


I'm 100% convinced that general aviation is risky, and there are many things pilots do that unnecessarily add to the risk.

It's a matter of degree isn't it. Millions of hours flown safely every year in GA. Billions of miles driven in cars each year with 30K+ casualties, deaths I mean. (Remember to back out the motorcycle deaths from the car wreck statistic). I didn't know Experimentals were 6x the accident rate of GA. Terrible. But to then extend the " OMG we're all gonna die" dynamic to all of GA is not fair. Two different animals. Sincerely sorry to hear about your friend. Those are hard days.


FWIU, operating a piston GA aircraft is about as risky as riding a bike on the street using the metric of passenger miles or hours of operation.
The thing is, most of the risk associated with riding a bike involves collision, not much of a threat in a light aircraft. Midairs aren't that common and there are no trees or guardrails in the sky.
The risks associated with GA flying are mostly manageable by the pilot flying, from what he spends on maintenance to what conditions he operates in, consistent with his skills, experience, ratings and currency.
Even with a homebuilt, as long as the builder pays attention and doesn't just gloss over building procedures he doesn't really understand, he should end up with a safe aircraft, although it may be one that couldn't meet the certification requirements of a type certified aircraft.
GA risks are largely determined by the judgment the pilot brings to the task, so the good news is that flying need not be at all dangerous.
Finally, any GA pilot needs to accept that while the ancient design engines are very reliable, they do occasionally fail, so the pilot needs to be aware of the possibility of an off airport forced landing. Better to land on a street or in a soybean field than to try and fail to stretch a glide back to the airport. You can always coast your car or bike to the side of the road while you have to land an airplane.
 
Originally Posted by DeepFriar
The Eric

Twins have a minimum control speed on one engine. Below that speed they will no longer be able to maintain directional control. Just as with a boat moving through its *fluid* speed provides some dynamic stability. Below that it all goes wonky beyond the level the pilot can control it. I would add one other light twin to the Baron that I'm comfortable in (I don't have one) during that transition - the 310. Engine failure has to be practiced well and often. It should be a straight ahead decision much more often, more people would be alive.

Edit - I should say that this is a one engine running phenom. The aircraft is always going to tend to roll into the dead engine, some more than others. Hope I haven't provided you with more confusion.


That helps, but what causes them to tuck their wing under and roll? Is it because they're so close to the edge of a stall that without the prop sending extra air to the wing, it stalls?
 
Eric

The short answer is asymmetric thrust (I have wagon with two mules. One mule dies and drops, the other marches on. Wagon turns toward the dead mule due to continuing *thrust* of live mule and the increased drag of the dead one.) Some added complexities like P factor and contra or non contra rotating props may come into play. Do a search for "critical engine", red and blue lines on the airspeed indicator and search airspeed indicator specifically. Wiki probably has understandable into without going too deep.
 
I'm a pilot. Been flying for airlines for over 20 years. I have a general aviation background before that.

The OP crash looks to me like a center of gravity (or maybe trim) problem. The plane leapt off the ground very quickly and jumped right beyond the steepest angle it could safely climb. I can't imagine anyone purposely climbing that steeply in that sort of plane-unless they were trying to kill themselves (another possibility.)

Whether this was trim (missed checklist item, or did no checklist) or C.G. (missed procedural item) or complete pilot incompetence, the result is the same.

Light twins have to be flown by pilots who know what they are doing. An aircraft is not like a bass boat. It needs to be flown by competent operators.

The longer I have been in aviation, the more I have come to realize how little of this really boils down to luck. Aviation is very unforgiving of incompetence. You need to be careful who you fly with. I am.
 
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