SN+ on Euro 0w40?

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This is mostly for my own curiosity and knowledge and I haven't ran into any issues personally. The 0w40 Euro oils we use for BMW,Mercedes, VW engines have and meet their respective factory certification which is fine, but I was curious why the API certification was only SN.

From my experience, and this could just be a coincidence but all gas turbo charged German engines seem to use 0w40. All these newer motors I have in mind are turbo charged direct injected motors. SN+ from my understanding was to address LSPI. These engines seem to be good candidates to suffer from LSPI, yet no Euro oil that I've seen has the SN+ rating. As a matter of fact SN+ seems to only come in 30 and 20wt oils.

Is there any explanation to what I've noticed?
 
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The Euro lubes usually lag behind on the API specs, since very few if any of the manufacturers call for them.
 
I have seen one 10W-40 oil that's SN+, and that was Rural King house brand.
 
Originally Posted by 2000Trooper
This is mostly for my own curiosity and knowledge and I haven't ran into any issues personally. The 0w40 Euro oils we use for BMW,Mercedes, VW engines have and meet their respective factory certification which is fine, but I was curious why the API certification was only SN.

From my experience, and this could just be a coincidence but all gas turbo charged German engines seem to use 0w40. All these newer motors I have in mind are turbo charged direct injected motors. SN+ from my understanding was to address LSPI. These engines seem to be good candidates to suffer from LSPI, yet no Euro oil that I've seen has the SN+ rating. As a matter of fact SN+ seems to only come in 30 and 20wt oils.

Is there any explanation to what I've noticed?

Because European manufacturers put API just because. It is irrelevant.
 
I have been driving German turbocharged GDI engines for over a decade, I am on forums daily. I have never heard of LSPI until I joined this forum. It is simply not an issue with German cars, whether by design or by engine/transmission tuning, they just do not seem to have this problem.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
The Euro lubes usually lag behind on the API specs, since very few if any of the manufacturers call for them.

LSPI seems to be an issue with turbo charged directed injected motors. Do these Euro motors not experience this issue(maybe because of the heavier oil, or a different base stock) or is this already taken into account with their respective manufacturer oil spec. To me it seems like the Germans have been using turbo charged engines longer than American and Asian manufacturers in their mainstream cars. They have more experience and these could be things that were addressed with newer manufacturer specs.

I know there are a lot of unknowns here and a lot of guess work. Figured I'd ask anyways.
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
I have been driving German turbocharged GDI engines for over a decade, I am on forums daily. I have never heard of LSPI until I joined this forum. It is simply not an issue with German cars, whether by design or by engine/transmission tuning, they just do not seem to have this problem.

Me neither. When all these Hyundai/KIA, Honda etc. started to pop out that is when I heard first time of LSPI. Their take on the fact that LSPI is not an issue on European vehicles is: yes it is, you and those engineers just do not know it.
 
Originally Posted by 2000Trooper
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
The Euro lubes usually lag behind on the API specs, since very few if any of the manufacturers call for them.

LSPI seems to be an issue with turbo charged directed injected motors. Do these Euro motors not experience this issue(maybe because of the heavier oil, or a different base stock) or is this already taken into account with their respective manufacturer oil spec. To me it seems like the Germans have been using turbo charged engines longer than American and Asian manufacturers in their mainstream cars. They have more experience and these could be things that were addressed with newer manufacturer specs.

I know there are a lot of unknowns here and a lot of guess work. Figured I'd ask anyways.

Mostly what you said.
First of all, this trend is called "downsizing" and VW for example is in it since 1996 (no DI though). When they introduces first TFSI engine in 2005, they had some issues, mostly regarding fuel dilution and CBU. But, LSPI was not an issue. EU manufacturers recommend oils that are far better than ILSAC GF-5 oils. They develop engines for severe exploitation on German autobahns, not American suburbia. That comes with a lot of advantages and some disadvantages (BMW had these issues; a lot on their V8 engines). On top of that, they are all, 99% of cases require min 91 octane gas.
Turbo engines in Honda, Hyundai and other appliance cars are made for average American consumer. The first goal is not performance, but how to minimize potential expenses during exploitation, like oil changes, gas (this is actually big issue. All these turbo's are able to run on 87, which is really antithesis when it comes to turbo technology) etc. That is why LSPI can become an issue.
 
Yes.
Originally Posted by edyvw

Turbo engines in Honda, Hyundai and other appliance cars are made for average American consumer. The first goal is not performance, but how to minimize potential expenses during exploitation, like oil changes, gas (this is actually big issue. All these turbo's are able to run on 87, which is really antithesis when it comes to turbo technology) etc. That is why LSPI can become an issue.


That's old school thinking, of port-injection days of turbocharging, where a lower compression ratio is better.

Direct injection has a cooling effect on the cylinder temperatures, lowering the knock requirements, and allow for more compression ratio, which engineers need to find the sweet spot for their design goals and other restrictions.
 
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Originally Posted by UG_Passat

Yes.
Originally Posted by edyvw

Turbo engines in Honda, Hyundai and other appliance cars are made for average American consumer. The first goal is not performance, but how to minimize potential expenses during exploitation, like oil changes, gas (this is actually big issue. All these turbo's are able to run on 87, which is really antithesis when it comes to turbo technology) etc. That is why LSPI can become an issue.


That's old school thinking, of port-injection days of turbocharging, where a lower compression ratio is better.

Direct injection has a cooling effect on the cylinder temperatures, lowering the knock requirements, and allow for more compression ratio, which engineers need to find the sweet spot for their design goals and other restrictions.

Yes, but European turbo charged engines from port days had pretty high compression ratio.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
. All these turbo's are able to run on 87, which is really antithesis when it comes to turbo technology) etc. That is why LSPI can become an issue.


Don't VW's 1.8T TSI engines run 87 octane with no LSPI problems? When I asked about LSPI in a 2.0T TSI people seemed to agree it was only a problem in very small displacement engines...
 
Originally Posted by jakeyjohn1
Originally Posted by edyvw
. All these turbo's are able to run on 87, which is really antithesis when it comes to turbo technology) etc. That is why LSPI can become an issue.


Don't VW's 1.8T TSI engines run 87 octane with no LSPI problems? When I asked about LSPI in a 2.0T TSI people seemed to agree it was only a problem in very small displacement engines...

I have never seen a thread on VWVORTEX about LSPI ever . And those guys and gals push those engines to the limit even going to church
 
Interestingly, IMO best Full-SAPS oil for Euro gassers is Castrol 0W30, and it is API SL
smile.gif
(and due to W30 API demands, will always stay SL).
 
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Originally Posted by Kjmack
I have never seen a thread on VWVORTEX about LSPI ever . And those guys and gals push those engines to the limit even going to church

Maybe you explained it yourself. "Low speed" is the problem here.
 
Don't forget that ZDDP is a LSPI quencher, and it acts exponentially, so a little more ZDDP goes a long way to hinder LSPI.

A typical ILSAC oil may have 700 - 800 ppm zinc, while a Euro oil may have around 1000 zinc.


ZDDP also protects the metal as an anti-wear agent and protects the oil as an anti-oxidant agent.
 
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