Gas vs Oil

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tiger862

tiger862

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As title says which is more important for pistons. I was researching what I could find on Havoline ProDs and only thing they tought is how clean it keeps engine for 150k and best for longer drain than competitors. I did like that they showed the piston had noticable wear and carbon at 150k with saying normal. BLAH BLAH BLAH Pennzoil went further to even criticize gm and FCA spec saying they keep pistons 40% cleaner than their specs. All oil companies have a claim and gas companies do same with new top tier specs coming out. So other than change oil more frequently or fillup with a better octane any how 89 what else is there that would help. My cars have always been higher mileage and with amount of short trips I only get around 50k and 9 years out of a vehicle over last 3 vehicles. I sell these cause costwise is to expensive with everyone having carbon buildup. Only solution is drive more trips but that is not always possible.
I am hoping to get more out of Grand Caravan since I got it with low mileage but no guarantee. What are your opinion. I ran Midgrade and Pennzoil synthetic on last one but GM electronics got it as well as oil leaks. I plan same here with Synthetic oil and Midgrade gas. Seems like the more refined fuel will help keep things cleaner.
 
Originally Posted by tiger862
As title says which is more important for pistons. I was researching what I could find on Havoline ProDs and only thing they tought is how clean it keeps engine for 150k and best for longer drain than competitors. I did like that they showed the piston had noticable wear and carbon at 150k with saying normal. BLAH BLAH BLAH Pennzoil went further to even criticize gm and FCA spec saying they keep pistons 40% cleaner than their specs. All oil companies have a claim and gas companies do same with new top tier specs coming out. So other than change oil more frequently or fillup with a better octane any how 89 what else is there that would help. My cars have always been higher mileage and with amount of short trips I only get around 50k and 9 years out of a vehicle over last 3 vehicles. I sell these cause costwise is to expensive with everyone having carbon buildup. Only solution is drive more trips but that is not always possible.
I am hoping to get more out of Grand Caravan since I got it with low mileage but no guarantee. What are your opinion. I ran Midgrade and Pennzoil synthetic on last one but GM electronics got it as well as oil leaks. I plan same here with Synthetic oil and Midgrade gas. Seems like the more refined fuel will help keep things cleaner.

If you're running the octane rating that your cars require, going higher than that isn't going to help your engine be cleaner. If you want your fuel to do a better job cleaning, go to this webpage and stick to brands on that list.

For oil, refer to the specs in your owner's manuals and pick the thinnest synthetic oil you can find that meets those specs. Then make sure you're changing it on the "severe service" schedule.

Also, make sure your ignition parts, fuel injectors, and sensors are in good health at all times.

With all that short tripping, there really isn't much else you can do.
 
Originally Posted by Kjmack
What kind of vehicle are you talking about ?

Just a generic question. I used my vehicles as an example. I own a 2018 Grand Caravan but I know the problem with low speed driving as it has been a big part of not only my driving but others in family
Oils have come a long ways so hopefully engine changes at 50k will be in past. Do you consider gas quality or oil quality or combination of both to keep engines cleaner?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by tiger862
As title says which is more important for pistons. I was researching what I could find on Havoline ProDs and only thing they tought is how clean it keeps engine for 150k and best for longer drain than competitors. I did like that they showed the piston had noticable wear and carbon at 150k with saying normal. BLAH BLAH BLAH Pennzoil went further to even criticize gm and FCA spec saying they keep pistons 40% cleaner than their specs. All oil companies have a claim and gas companies do same with new top tier specs coming out. So other than change oil more frequently or fillup with a better octane any how 89 what else is there that would help. My cars have always been higher mileage and with amount of short trips I only get around 50k and 9 years out of a vehicle over last 3 vehicles. I sell these cause costwise is to expensive with everyone having carbon buildup. Only solution is drive more trips but that is not always possible.
I am hoping to get more out of Grand Caravan since I got it with low mileage but no guarantee. What are your opinion. I ran Midgrade and Pennzoil synthetic on last one but GM electronics got it as well as oil leaks. I plan same here with Synthetic oil and Midgrade gas. Seems like the more refined fuel will help keep things cleaner.

If you're running the octane rating that your cars require, going higher than that isn't going to help your engine be cleaner. If you want your fuel to do a better job cleaning, go to this webpage and stick to brands on that list.

For oil, refer to the specs in your owner's manuals and pick the thinnest synthetic oil you can find that meets those specs. Then make sure you're changing it on the "severe service" schedule.

Also, make sure your ignition parts, fuel injectors, and sensors are in good health at all times.

With all that short tripping, there really isn't much else you can do.

I here same thing over and over with fuel but I beg to differ. Internet says don't waste money on higher octane but spend it on Synthetic oil. I used 87 for years with replacement of injector, fuel pump, carburetor for lawn equipment etc. from the use of lesser quality fuel. Never lost anything fuel related since went to 89. See my vehicle can sit for periods of time and 87 needs replaced every 30 days. My vehicle now is a flex vehicle so it adjusts timing and fuel trim for 87 up to E85. I always ran TopTeir fuel but just started Synthetic oil a couple of years ago. I spend between 30 to 50 a year more between the oil and fuel so that isn't going to kill me. Back to question. Shell Exxon, Texaco etc. claim more refined fuel with higher octane which cleans better. So which is more important oil cleaning abilities or fuel cleaning abilities for an engine?
 
Originally Posted by tiger862
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by tiger862
As title says which is more important for pistons. I was researching what I could find on Havoline ProDs and only thing they tought is how clean it keeps engine for 150k and best for longer drain than competitors. I did like that they showed the piston had noticable wear and carbon at 150k with saying normal. BLAH BLAH BLAH Pennzoil went further to even criticize gm and FCA spec saying they keep pistons 40% cleaner than their specs. All oil companies have a claim and gas companies do same with new top tier specs coming out. So other than change oil more frequently or fillup with a better octane any how 89 what else is there that would help. My cars have always been higher mileage and with amount of short trips I only get around 50k and 9 years out of a vehicle over last 3 vehicles. I sell these cause costwise is to expensive with everyone having carbon buildup. Only solution is drive more trips but that is not always possible.
I am hoping to get more out of Grand Caravan since I got it with low mileage but no guarantee. What are your opinion. I ran Midgrade and Pennzoil synthetic on last one but GM electronics got it as well as oil leaks. I plan same here with Synthetic oil and Midgrade gas. Seems like the more refined fuel will help keep things cleaner.

If you're running the octane rating that your cars require, going higher than that isn't going to help your engine be cleaner. If you want your fuel to do a better job cleaning, go to this webpage and stick to brands on that list.

For oil, refer to the specs in your owner's manuals and pick the thinnest synthetic oil you can find that meets those specs. Then make sure you're changing it on the "severe service" schedule.

Also, make sure your ignition parts, fuel injectors, and sensors are in good health at all times.

With all that short tripping, there really isn't much else you can do.

I here same thing over and over with fuel but I beg to differ. Internet says don't waste money on higher octane but spend it on Synthetic oil. I used 87 for years with replacement of injector, fuel pump, carburetor for lawn equipment etc. from the use of lesser quality fuel. Never lost anything fuel related since went to 89. See my vehicle can sit for periods of time and 87 needs replaced every 30 days. My vehicle now is a flex vehicle so it adjusts timing and fuel trim for 87 up to E85.

Okay, now it's starting to make sense. Or at least, I can see how it might. If your cars sit for longer than 30 days, then yeah, you probably want higher octane fuel. Good thing you now have one that'll run up to E85 -- you can run high octane fuel in that. Probably a good idea.


Originally Posted by tiger862
So which is more important oil cleaning abilities or fuel cleaning abilities for an engine?

If I had to pick one, I'd probably pick fuel. But I'm really glad I don't have to pick one, because they're both really important.
 
89 octane is just a blend of regular and premium. Higher octane fuel does not last longer than lower octane fuel. E85 is hydroscopic, let it sit around too long and it'll start pulling moisture out of the atmosphere.
 
Originally Posted by d00df00d

I didn't think so either, but apparently Sunoco does:

https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/octane-stability-high-octane-vs-low-octane-fuels


I learn something new every day on this forum lol

But one could argue a little bit of Sta-Bil is a better idea? I run nothing but e10 87 octane in all my OPE and never winterize beyond that. Every year everything fires up on the first or 2nd pull. I'd do the same in a car I rarely would drive.
 
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by d00df00d

I didn't think so either, but apparently Sunoco does:

https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/octane-stability-high-octane-vs-low-octane-fuels


I learn something new every day on this forum lol

But one could argue a little bit of Sta-Bil is a better idea? I run nothing but e10 87 octane in all my OPE and never winterize beyond that. Every year everything fires up on the first or 2nd pull. I'd do the same in a car I rarely would drive.

Yeah, maybe.
 
Originally Posted by Skippy722
89 octane is just a blend of regular and premium. Higher octane fuel does not last longer than lower octane fuel. E85 is hydroscopic, let it sit around too long and it'll start pulling moisture out of the atmosphere.



I think I have read that the ethanol in E10 raised the octane rating ? If that is true , I am guessing 87 octane E10 would be a lower octane rating , w/o the ethanol ?

I know the E10 does not seem to play well with small engines ( lawn mowers . etc. ) if left in the tank off season .
 
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by Skippy722
89 octane is just a blend of regular and premium. Higher octane fuel does not last longer than lower octane fuel.

I didn't think so either, but apparently Sunoco does:

https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/octane-stability-high-octane-vs-low-octane-fuels


I'm having a hard time believing this. I've used 87 octane E10 that sat in a tank for 8 months, and it ran just fine. No rough idle, no misfires, no issues at all. I'm in the camp that octane rating differences (of the same fuel) is just based on a comparison of iso-octane to heptane and the only determining factor is the auto-ignition temperature (~460*F for 87, ~540*F for 93).

I don't trust "facts" from company pages as there's always going to be some sort of bias. Is there an SAE paper on this subject that can backup Sunoco's article?
 
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by Skippy722
89 octane is just a blend of regular and premium. Higher octane fuel does not last longer than lower octane fuel.

I didn't think so either, but apparently Sunoco does:

https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/octane-stability-high-octane-vs-low-octane-fuels


I'm having a hard time believing this. I've used 87 octane E10 that sat in a tank for 8 months, and it ran just fine. No rough idle, no misfires, no issues at all. I'm in the camp that octane rating differences (of the same fuel) is just based on a comparison of iso-octane to heptane and the only determining factor is the auto-ignition temperature (~460*F for 87, ~540*F for 93).

I don't trust "facts" from company pages as there's always going to be some sort of bias. Is there an SAE paper on this subject that can backup Sunoco's article?

Fair points. I don't see a reason not to believe Sunoco on this point, but I can't really argue with your skepticism. I don't really have a dog in that hunt either way, so I should probably make way for others to comment.

Not sure if I misunderstood what you wrote about octane rating differences, but they're not the kind of thing there can really be "camps" on. They're determined by specific and publicly known methods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating#Measurement_methods

On your experience vs. OP's: Engines differ in their tolerance of octane ratings, and I'd imagine fuel systems also differ in their exposure of fuel to contamination or degradation. And that's even if you don't factor in differences in usage and climate. The fact that you haven't had problems while OP has could just reflect those differences, no?
 
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by Skippy722
89 octane is just a blend of regular and premium. Higher octane fuel does not last longer than lower octane fuel.

I didn't think so either, but apparently Sunoco does:

https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/octane-stability-high-octane-vs-low-octane-fuels


I'm having a hard time believing this. I've used 87 octane E10 that sat in a tank for 8 months, and it ran just fine. No rough idle, no misfires, no issues at all. I'm in the camp that octane rating differences (of the same fuel) is just based on a comparison of iso-octane to heptane and the only determining factor is the auto-ignition temperature (~460*F for 87, ~540*F for 93).

I don't trust "facts" from company pages as there's always going to be some sort of bias. Is there an SAE paper on this subject that can backup Sunoco's article?

Fair points. I don't see a reason not to believe Sunoco on this point, but I can't really argue with your skepticism. I don't really have a dog in that hunt either way, so I should probably make way for others to comment.

Not sure if I misunderstood what you wrote about octane rating differences, but they're not the kind of thing there can really be "camps" on. They're determined by specific and publicly known methods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating#Measurement_methods

On your experience vs. OP's: Engines differ in their tolerance of octane ratings, and I'd imagine fuel systems also differ in their exposure of fuel to contamination or degradation. And that's even if you don't factor in differences in usage and climate. The fact that you haven't had problems while OP has could just reflect those differences, no?


Fair points there as well. I also can't find a reason to dispute Sunoco's article. It just goes against what I know (or thought I knew) so my ego wants a 2nd or 3rd unbiased supporting opinion to verify the new (to me) information. When I see Sunoco, all I feel like I'm reading is "we want you to buy our more expensive product." I say backup your information. Show me the data. I'm going to spend some time researching this tonight.
 
Re the Sunoco article, IMHO here are the points relevant to pump gas users:

"If stored in a vapor tight container the vapor pressure can be maintained for long periods of time. Fuel exposed to the atmosphere can lose light components within a couple of days. Over time as vapor pressure decreases the fuel can become stale."

"Even in proper storage 87 octane gas can start to degrade in 3 months, 93 octane fuel should last closer to 9 months before degradation is noticeable."
 
I have found that when storing gasoline in an oxygen-free and moisture-free environment, gasoline stores for years.
 
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