How much balance weight is too much

[Hitman70]

BTW I see the offset of my car is 56.4 and rims are 35. Can I use them or does I need something else, an adapter or dunno.

Those rims was sold as fully compatible and now I see lot of problems...

 

[1978elcamino]

I use to work at tirekingdom as a tire tech for a couple years in the mid 90's. For wheel weight we kinda had a genral rule of thumb. If it were a car tire and needed 1.75oz or more on each side, trucks 2.0 oz, off road tires 3.0 oz, we would break the bead again and rotate the tire 180 degrees on the rim and try again. Most of the time it would then take less weight, about half the weight. If it then took less weight and balanced out to zero on the machine we would ship it. Back then the only cars that took stick on weights were corvettes and porsche's, maybe the occasional whale tail civics with fancy wheels.

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted by Hitman70


The problem is here nobody balance wheels by lugs… I called many tire shops and nobody even know it exists… They all balance by hub…

If I buy 78.30 to 71.5 hub adapters, then I can balance by hub?




You don't seem to understand what lug centric means ... most after market wheels are lug centric, with a centre bore (hole) that is larger than the cars hub. Tightening the lug nuts centres the wheel. Cars have many different sized hubs, and a wheel maker would need dozens of different part numbers to fit each car exactly. Instead, they make the centre hole larger, so it fits on a larger number of cars.

Most balancing machines balance the wheels using the centre hole. Bigger or smaller, it should not cause any problems balancing a wheel / tire assembly. There are two possible problems with lug centric wheels. First, if the bolt pattern circle is drilled incorrectly, the wheels will not be centered and a vibration may result ( very rare ... ). 2nd, when tightening the wheels, it is possible that the wheel doesn't self centre as the lugs are tightened, especially if someone doesn't tighten each lug slowly, working their way around the wheel. And we are talking about very small amounts ... fractions of a millimetre, but again, a vibration could show up.

All center ring adapters do is help centre the wheel during installation on the car hub, reducing the likelihood of tightening the lugs without them self centering, and having the wheel be off centre. Usually they are plastic, and have no load bearing purpose whatsoever.

As for the 4 oz of weight, if it bothers you rotate the tire 1/2 way around the wheel, and balance again ... sometimes when the tire gets mounted the tire heavy spot randomly ends up where the wheel heavy spot is, then you need more weight to balance the assembly. If the heavy spot on the tire is opposite the heavy spot on the wheel, less weight ( or none sometimes ... ) will be needed to balance the tire / wheel assembly.

 

[eljefino]

My question about the center bore relates to some (eg trailer) tire wheels having a poorly centered center hole, as manufactured. Sorry to confuse.

It would be foolish of American Racing to suck at doing this thing correctly.

However as others pointed out, Lug-centric is not super ideal. Even if you put a spacer ring in, those have a little slop.

Every tire/wheel/suspension combo has its critical speed where vibrations cause harmonics that bug you. But the bigger you go, the higher that speed gets, so you may be able to escape this. Miata owners go crazy over tiny imbalances because their little roller skate wheels spin many RPMs to get anywhere.

 

[Hitman70]

Originally Posted by geeman789


Originally Posted by Hitman70


The problem is here nobody balance wheels by lugs… I called many tire shops and nobody even know it exists… They all balance by hub…

If I buy 78.30 to 71.5 hub adapters, then I can balance by hub?




You don't seem to understand what lug centric means ... most after market wheels are lug centric, with a centre bore (hole) that is larger than the cars hub. Tightening the lug nuts centres the wheel. Cars have many different sized hubs, and a wheel maker would need dozens of different part numbers to fit each car exactly. Instead, they make the centre hole larger, so it fits on a larger number of cars.

Most balancing machines balance the wheels using the centre hole. Bigger or smaller, it should not cause any problems balancing a wheel / tire assembly. There are two possible problems with lug centric wheels. First, if the bolt pattern circle is drilled incorrectly, the wheels will not be centered and a vibration may result ( very rare ... ). 2nd, when tightening the wheels, it is possible that the wheel doesn't self centre as the lugs are tightened, especially if someone doesn't tighten each lug slowly, working their way around the wheel. And we are talking about very small amounts ... fractions of a millimetre, but again, a vibration could show up.

All center ring adapters do is help centre the wheel during installation on the car hub, reducing the likelihood of tightening the lugs without them self centering, and having the wheel be off centre. Usually they are plastic, and have no load bearing purpose whatsoever.

As for the 4 oz of weight, if it bothers you rotate the tire 1/2 way around the wheel, and balance again ... sometimes when the tire gets mounted the tire heavy spot randomly ends up where the wheel heavy spot is, then you need more weight to balance the assembly. If the heavy spot on the tire is opposite the heavy spot on the wheel, less weight ( or none sometimes ... ) will be needed to balance the tire / wheel assembly.


Thanks for your explanations.

I asked this about balancing wheels by lugs, because I've read about lugcentric balancing with special adapter for lugcentric wheels, like this:

And here in Switzerland nobody have adapters like this… We only balance by hub hole.

If it's ok to balance my wheels by hub, that's good. I'll try to rotate the tires.

But my problem is, even without tires mounted, my rims already requires 60 gramm (2 oz) of weight… Seems a lot for a "naked" rim… If it's how it's supposed to be, no problem, I'll add tons of weight, just want to be sure such wheels won't damage my car.

I'll buy center hub adapter 78.3 mm to 71.50 for be sure it's perfectly centred.

And what about the 35mm offset as my car requires 56.4. No risk?

 

[CapriRacer]

A couple of thoughts:

Yes, 2 oz to balance a bare wheel seems excessive - assuming the weights are going on the rim flange. If they are going some place else - like behind the spokes on the flat of the wheel, 2 oz sounds OK.

Once a tire/wheel is balanced, it is balanced. It isn't more susceptible to vibration if it requires more weight.

Rotating the tire relative to the wheel might reduce the amount of weight required to balance the assembly, but it doesn't improve the balance.

Even if a tire/wheel assembly is balanced, it can still be out of round - and that can cause a vibration- and that vibration can NOT be fixed by adding (or subtracting) balance weights.

The reason most balancers use the center hole to center the wheel instead of the lug holes is that the lug holes are supposed to be centered on the hub, just like center hole.is supposed to be - BUT - since it is more difficult to get ALL the lug holes and lugs centered and perpendicular, occasionally these things aren't.

In all my investigations of vibrational problems with cars and trucks, a lug/lughole being off center has only occurred once. Most of the time, the vibration was caused by the tire being out of round with an out of round wheel being the second most common. Off-center center holes (that's an awkward phrase!) and off-center lug/lug holes is extremely rare. Even wheels not properly seated (centered) on the balancer is way, way more common.

OTOH, this is BITOG where trivial minutiae is debated to death just for the fun of it.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by andyd
Am I just showing my age? 265 50R20 on a Jeep? And this is a good idea because?

18 is smallest size. Weight, speed and brakes that need large wheels.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by andyd
Am I just showing my age? 265 50R20 on a Jeep? And this is a good idea because?

Mine runs 295's and nothing smaller than a 20 would clear my brakes.

 

[meep]

20" is a large wheel to begin with. it probably weighs ... what, 33-34 lbs? more? one would hope AR/ATX could take the time to center it.... OR, they left it lighter intentionally to compensate for TPMS. The question was asked earlier, was the wheel checked with TPMS installed? If their intention was to account for TPMS, hat's off for good thinking. I'm not sure how a MFR could expect to get it perfectly anymore, because of TPMS imbalance. OTOH, 2 oz off of a 33 pound assembly, I'm not sure I'd be concerned. A tech who is paying attention to quality will rotate the tire.

 

[Hitman70]

Originally Posted by meep
20" is a large wheel to begin with. it probably weighs ... what, 33-34 lbs? more? one would hope AR/ATX could take the time to center it.... OR, they left it lighter intentionally to compensate for TPMS. The question was asked earlier, was the wheel checked with TPMS installed? If their intention was to account for TPMS, hat's off for good thinking. I'm not sure how a MFR could expect to get it perfectly anymore, because of TPMS imbalance. OTOH, 2 oz off of a 33 pound assembly, I'm not sure I'd be concerned. A tech who is paying attention to quality will rotate the tire.


Yeah, the rim alone is about 37lbs and the full assembly about 66 lbs…

2 oz is for balance the rim, for full assembly it's about 4oz,even with tires rotated, tried today.

So, I guess the best would be to balance by adding those 4 oz, and use a Hubcentric ring for have it good adjusted on the car hub.

My only wonder is the fact it's 35 offsetand Jeep offset is 56.4. Any risk?

 

[Dave9]

If rotating the tires keeps it at 4oz, that suggests the heavier part of the tire was off by closer to 90' than 180'. Picture the two in your mind and how where the extra weight is, affects balance. Granted if it's not off by 180', the reduction in balance weight by matching tire to rim perfectly, is reduced too so it's a case of diminishing returns to keep rotating and remounting each tire.

Yes the rims will be heavy but you're trading for lower tire weight considering the vehicle. 29 lb tires, but suppose it had 16" rims instead of 20"... an equivalent tire size then would be about 265/70R16 and would be closer to 40lbs. instead of 29lbs.

The lower offset of the aftermarket wheels will make them stick out of the fenders a bit more, all else equal (like rim width of course), and change your scrub radius slightly, but 56mm to 35mm is not a big change. If you want to know if wheels sticking out further are going to sling road grime onto your body panels, you may have to ask in a Jeep forum to find a large enough pool of people that anyone has tried your specific combo of wheels/tires/vehicle. Of course some jeep owners put fender flares on but this usually when a tire size goes up a lot, otherwise it doesn't seem worth the bother.

Hub-centric rings, I would wait. I'd mount the wheels, get it out on the highway then see if you're getting extreme vibrations at speed. If they weren't balanced right that could cause vibrations but assuming they were, eliminates that variable then you're left with the lug centric issue or out of round rim or tire... or maybe air in the steering system if a hydraulic rack and the knuckle was moved while the engine was off, which shouldn't need done to swap wheels, but who knows what an *ambitious* person will do if looking at (checking for) suspension wear while changing wheels. At some point you do want to check for suspension wear before getting an alignment, or just trust the alignment tech to do so??

 

[Hitman70]

Thanks for all those informations.

I'm now reassured about the 35mm offset.

About hub-centric rings, I can get them for be sure to do everything right and good centred.

About my suspension wear, actually, with my stock wheels (same size), I don't get any vibration even at high speeds and my car has only 13'000 km (about 8'000 miles) so I don't think there is any wear at a so low mileage. Plus I have quadra lift air suspension, i think it's less prone to wear than conventional suspension.

I do the wheel change myself with the help of a friend who own a garage, so I'll be really careful, as I am always with my cars, no risk we move a hydraulic rack while doing the job. I'll just have to not forget to put my car on "jack mode" that disables the air suspension before jacking the car, for avoid any problem.

If I want to do the job myself with the help of my friend, it's for avoid to let my car to a tire shop where it could get damaged, as I am really very perfectionist with the condition of my car. I'm scared they forget the "jack mode" in computer before jacking the car, I'm scared they damage my side steps while jacking the car, I'm scared they damage my trunk, the leather or the rear bumper while charging the 66 lbs wheels in my car, and so and so… So finally I decided to do the job by myself for be sure that all is done correctly

 

[wander2039]

For reference my good RV tires took 4.5oz to balance. Didn't check just the rim. The two that were out of round took 9.5-10.5... based on the weights they were like that from new. Two different installers also.

 

[Hitman70]

Btw, with the AR893 rims, they sold me Gorilla conical Lug nuts open headed.

Those:

They seems so small compared to stock lug nuts. Are they tough enough for a 66 lb Wheel? I'm scared they will broke and i'll lose my wheels... lol

And since they are open head, is there any risk my studs start to rust? Should I buy some ^lug nuts covers for protect the studs?

Thanks

 

[Dave9]

Nut failure is rare unless you leave them too lose and the wheel bangs against it for quite a while while driving, or they are over-torqued and damaged during that event or upon attempting removal the socket deforms them.

The greatest risk with those nuts is if you let a shop put them on with an impact wrench and they grossly over-torque them instead of finishing with a torque wrench to spec., or of course if you lose or break the socket and have to be creative to get them off.

Personally I prefer to use only one special/anti-theft nut per wheel so if there is a problem, you don't have all 5+ nuts per wheel to fight with.

Open ended, yes in some situations your lug studs will rust faster. In other situations they'll dry faster and rust less. Do not let muck build up in the end that holds water. Covers, I suppose it depends on what you're talking about, I have not used those with any covers. I'd use some other closed end nuts or covers if you're going mudding at all, but as others and your tire size indicates, this vehicle isn't set up for mudding.

 

[Hitman70]

Thanks for your answer.

I'll change wheels myself, so I think I won't use impact wrench at all with those wheels. But anyway, I always finish my wheels with torque wrench. I put usually 120 nm. For this Jeep, they say it needs 176 nm but I guess it's with stock wheels. So I don't know which torque I need with those wheels/lugs. Maybe 120 nm as I always used to do with my others cars?

Lug nuts covers, I mean lug nuts caps, like those:

Maybe it will protect my studs from water and dirt?

I'm not really mudding of course. This SUV is my daily car, so I use it anywhere where I can't use my Porsche (go job, long travels, etc). Sometimes I go in forest for walking and park my Jeep there, but I'm not really mudding, just using some unimproved roads.

 

[Dave9]

I have never used those and don't know if they latch on well to non-standard (non-hex) nuts. They do seem like they'll reduce gunk buildup, but you can try the nuts alone then decide what to do.

I wonder though, why not just return the lug nuts for refund without ever using them and get something else? Your call, again I would rather have only one security nut per wheel even if that means it doesn't match the others.

If I lived in a very high crime area and was concerned that a thief would take other lug nuts off before realizing they couldn't get the security nut off, and this risks some nuts being tossed aside and lost by the would-be thieves, I would just have a few spare standard lug nuts in the vehicle to replace those.

 

[Hitman70]

So finally we did install the new wheels today.

We couldn't put adhesives weights on the outer side of the wheels, because of the design of the rim, so we used the setting for balance by the inner side only.

Is it ok to balance wheels only by inner side of the wheels, with adhesive weights only in the inside of the wheel?

I didn't drove that much yet but seems fine... Dunno if I may have problems later.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by Hitman70
…… Is it ok to balance wheels only by inner side of the wheels, with adhesive weights only in the inside of the wheel? …….


What happened in the check balance cycle? If the machine indicated the tire was balanced during the check cycle, it is balanced within the tolerance.

And did you do a static balance or a dynamic balance? It makes a difference.