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Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: Hitman70] #5081958
04/21/19 05:43 PM
04/21/19 05:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,509
NYC
michaelluscher Offline
michaelluscher  Offline

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,509
NYC
Maybe seek out a Hunter RoadForce balance machine

See if your out of round, or moving the tire around on the rim would lower the amount of weight needed


'06 Toyota Camry SE V6 3MZ-FE 124k
'01 Mercury Villager Estate VG33E 52k
'06 Ford Taurus SE Vulcan 60k
Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: andyd] #5082007
04/21/19 06:25 PM
04/21/19 06:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,414
Suburban Washington DC
atikovi Offline
atikovi  Offline

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,414
Suburban Washington DC
Originally Posted by andyd
Am I just showing my age? 265 50R20 on a Jeep? And this is a good idea because? shrug


Looks. 235/75R16 isn't sexy.

Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: Hitman70] #5082037
04/21/19 06:54 PM
04/21/19 06:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 625
Cincinnati, USA
Dave9 Offline
Dave9  Offline

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 625
Cincinnati, USA
265/50R20 because they adapted to the needs of modern SUV/CUV buyers, which do most driving on-road, and off-road usually isn't rocks and mud, so something in the 18" to 20" wheel size makes sense for improved road handling.

If you want different wheels and tires you do the same as everyone did all along and replace the factory parts, though if there is space you might be able to shoehorn a 265/60R20 (even heavier than the already heavy setup) in there without a lift kit, which has over 90% of the sidewall a 235/75R16 has... just not so much the AT and especially mudder tread options you get in smaller wheel sizes...

Last edited by Dave9; 04/21/19 07:08 PM.
Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: Hitman70] #5082044
04/21/19 07:00 PM
04/21/19 07:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 625
Cincinnati, USA
Dave9 Offline
Dave9  Offline

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 625
Cincinnati, USA
Originally Posted by Hitman70
[Linked Image]

Bore is 78.30.

So I've just to find Grand Cherokee Hub Bore size and i'll know if it's centred or not?

According to the following site your hub bore is 71.5mm so if true, these will be lug centric not hub centric.

https://www.wheel-size.com/size/jeep/grand-cherokee/2015/

Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: Hitman70] #5082949
04/22/19 04:46 PM
04/22/19 04:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 26
Switzerland
Hitman70 Offline OP
Hitman70  Offline OP

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 26
Switzerland
Thanks!

The problem is here nobody balance wheels by lugs… I called many tire shops and nobody even know it exists… They all balance by hub…

If I buy 78.30 to 71.5 hub adapters, then I can balance by hub?

Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: Hitman70] #5083376
04/23/19 05:25 AM
04/23/19 05:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 26
Switzerland
Hitman70 Offline OP
Hitman70  Offline OP

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 26
Switzerland
BTW I see the offset of my car is 56.4 and rims are 35. Can I use them or does I need something else, an adapter or dunno.

Those rims was sold as fully compatible and now I see lot of problems...

Last edited by Hitman70; 04/23/19 05:26 AM.
Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: Hitman70] #5083805
04/23/19 02:23 PM
04/23/19 02:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 282
Florida
1978elcamino Offline
1978elcamino  Offline

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 282
Florida
I use to work at tirekingdom as a tire tech for a couple years in the mid 90's. For wheel weight we kinda had a genral rule of thumb. If it were a car tire and needed 1.75oz or more on each side, trucks 2.0 oz, off road tires 3.0 oz, we would break the bead again and rotate the tire 180 degrees on the rim and try again. Most of the time it would then take less weight, about half the weight. If it then took less weight and balanced out to zero on the machine we would ship it. Back then the only cars that took stick on weights were corvettes and porsche's, maybe the occasional whale tail civics with fancy wheels.


2018 F150 5.0
2016 Ford Fusion 2.5
Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: Hitman70] #5083814
04/23/19 02:31 PM
04/23/19 02:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 891
Western Canada
geeman789 Offline
geeman789  Offline

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 891
Western Canada


Originally Posted by Hitman70


The problem is here nobody balance wheels by lugs… I called many tire shops and nobody even know it exists… They all balance by hub…

If I buy 78.30 to 71.5 hub adapters, then I can balance by hub?




You don't seem to understand what lug centric means ... most after market wheels are lug centric, with a centre bore (hole) that is larger than the cars hub. Tightening the lug nuts centres the wheel. Cars have many different sized hubs, and a wheel maker would need dozens of different part numbers to fit each car exactly. Instead, they make the centre hole larger, so it fits on a larger number of cars.

Most balancing machines balance the wheels using the centre hole. Bigger or smaller, it should not cause any problems balancing a wheel / tire assembly. There are two possible problems with lug centric wheels. First, if the bolt pattern circle is drilled incorrectly, the wheels will not be centered and a vibration may result ( very rare ... ). 2nd, when tightening the wheels, it is possible that the wheel doesn't self centre as the lugs are tightened, especially if someone doesn't tighten each lug slowly, working their way around the wheel. And we are talking about very small amounts ... fractions of a millimetre, but again, a vibration could show up.

All center ring adapters do is help centre the wheel during installation on the car hub, reducing the likelihood of tightening the lugs without them self centering, and having the wheel be off centre. Usually they are plastic, and have no load bearing purpose whatsoever.

As for the 4 oz of weight, if it bothers you rotate the tire 1/2 way around the wheel, and balance again ... sometimes when the tire gets mounted the tire heavy spot randomly ends up where the wheel heavy spot is, then you need more weight to balance the assembly. If the heavy spot on the tire is opposite the heavy spot on the wheel, less weight ( or none sometimes ... ) will be needed to balance the tire / wheel assembly.


2011 SUBARU Impreza 5-door manual / 2016 HONDA Pilot / 2011 MAZDA 2 auto
Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: Hitman70] #5083976
04/23/19 05:15 PM
04/23/19 05:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 34,545
ME
eljefino Offline
eljefino  Offline

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 34,545
ME
My question about the center bore relates to some (eg trailer) tire wheels having a poorly centered center hole, as manufactured. Sorry to confuse.

It would be foolish of American Racing to suck at doing this thing correctly.

However as others pointed out, Lug-centric is not super ideal. Even if you put a spacer ring in, those have a little slop.

Every tire/wheel/suspension combo has its critical speed where vibrations cause harmonics that bug you. But the bigger you go, the higher that speed gets, so you may be able to escape this. Miata owners go crazy over tiny imbalances because their little roller skate wheels spin many RPMs to get anywhere.

Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: geeman789] #5084327
04/24/19 12:52 AM
04/24/19 12:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 26
Switzerland
Hitman70 Offline OP
Hitman70  Offline OP

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 26
Switzerland
Originally Posted by geeman789


Originally Posted by Hitman70


The problem is here nobody balance wheels by lugs… I called many tire shops and nobody even know it exists… They all balance by hub…

If I buy 78.30 to 71.5 hub adapters, then I can balance by hub?




You don't seem to understand what lug centric means ... most after market wheels are lug centric, with a centre bore (hole) that is larger than the cars hub. Tightening the lug nuts centres the wheel. Cars have many different sized hubs, and a wheel maker would need dozens of different part numbers to fit each car exactly. Instead, they make the centre hole larger, so it fits on a larger number of cars.

Most balancing machines balance the wheels using the centre hole. Bigger or smaller, it should not cause any problems balancing a wheel / tire assembly. There are two possible problems with lug centric wheels. First, if the bolt pattern circle is drilled incorrectly, the wheels will not be centered and a vibration may result ( very rare ... ). 2nd, when tightening the wheels, it is possible that the wheel doesn't self centre as the lugs are tightened, especially if someone doesn't tighten each lug slowly, working their way around the wheel. And we are talking about very small amounts ... fractions of a millimetre, but again, a vibration could show up.

All center ring adapters do is help centre the wheel during installation on the car hub, reducing the likelihood of tightening the lugs without them self centering, and having the wheel be off centre. Usually they are plastic, and have no load bearing purpose whatsoever.

As for the 4 oz of weight, if it bothers you rotate the tire 1/2 way around the wheel, and balance again ... sometimes when the tire gets mounted the tire heavy spot randomly ends up where the wheel heavy spot is, then you need more weight to balance the assembly. If the heavy spot on the tire is opposite the heavy spot on the wheel, less weight ( or none sometimes ... ) will be needed to balance the tire / wheel assembly.


Thanks for your explanations.

I asked this about balancing wheels by lugs, because I've read about lugcentric balancing with special adapter for lugcentric wheels, like this: [Linked Image]

And here in Switzerland nobody have adapters like this… We only balance by hub hole.

If it's ok to balance my wheels by hub, that's good. I'll try to rotate the tires.

But my problem is, even without tires mounted, my rims already requires 60 gramm (2 oz) of weight… Seems a lot for a "naked" rim… If it's how it's supposed to be, no problem, I'll add tons of weight, just want to be sure such wheels won't damage my car.

I'll buy center hub adapter 78.3 mm to 71.50 for be sure it's perfectly centred.

And what about the 35mm offset as my car requires 56.4. No risk?

Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: Hitman70] #5084455
04/24/19 07:18 AM
04/24/19 07:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,598
Somewhere in the US
CapriRacer Offline
CapriRacer  Offline

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,598
Somewhere in the US
A couple of thoughts:

Yes, 2 oz to balance a bare wheel seems excessive - assuming the weights are going on the rim flange. If they are going some place else - like behind the spokes on the flat of the wheel, 2 oz sounds OK.

Once a tire/wheel is balanced, it is balanced. It isn't more susceptible to vibration if it requires more weight.

Rotating the tire relative to the wheel might reduce the amount of weight required to balance the assembly, but it doesn't improve the balance.

Even if a tire/wheel assembly is balanced, it can still be out of round - and that can cause a vibration- and that vibration can NOT be fixed by adding (or subtracting) balance weights.

The reason most balancers use the center hole to center the wheel instead of the lug holes is that the lug holes are supposed to be centered on the hub, just like center hole.is supposed to be - BUT - since it is more difficult to get ALL the lug holes and lugs centered and perpendicular, occasionally these things aren't.

In all my investigations of vibrational problems with cars and trucks, a lug/lughole being off center has only occurred once. Most of the time, the vibration was caused by the tire being out of round with an out of round wheel being the second most common. Off-center center holes (that's an awkward phrase!) and off-center lug/lug holes is extremely rare. Even wheels not properly seated (centered) on the balancer is way, way more common.

OTOH, this is BITOG where trivial minutiae is debated to death just for the fun of it.


CapriRacer

Visit my web site: www.BarrysTireTech.com
Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: andyd] #5084637
04/24/19 10:38 AM
04/24/19 10:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 7,096
Colorado Springs
edyvw Online content
edyvw  Online Content

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 7,096
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by andyd
Am I just showing my age? 265 50R20 on a Jeep? And this is a good idea because? shrug

18 is smallest size. Weight, speed and brakes that need large wheels.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: andyd] #5084679
04/24/19 11:17 AM
04/24/19 11:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 40,002
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 40,002
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by andyd
Am I just showing my age? 265 50R20 on a Jeep? And this is a good idea because? shrug


Mine runs 295's and nothing smaller than a 20 would clear my brakes.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: Hitman70] #5084728
04/24/19 12:13 PM
04/24/19 12:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,908
Southeast
meep Offline
meep  Offline

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,908
Southeast
20" is a large wheel to begin with. it probably weighs ... what, 33-34 lbs? more? one would hope AR/ATX could take the time to center it.... OR, they left it lighter intentionally to compensate for TPMS. The question was asked earlier, was the wheel checked with TPMS installed? If their intention was to account for TPMS, hat's off for good thinking. I'm not sure how a MFR could expect to get it perfectly anymore, because of TPMS imbalance. OTOH, 2 oz off of a 33 pound assembly, I'm not sure I'd be concerned. A tech who is paying attention to quality will rotate the tire.

Last edited by meep; 04/24/19 12:15 PM.

2018 F150
2015 crv (wifey!)
Re: How much balance weight is too much [Re: meep] #5084735
04/24/19 12:22 PM
04/24/19 12:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 26
Switzerland
Hitman70 Offline OP
Hitman70  Offline OP

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 26
Switzerland
Originally Posted by meep
20" is a large wheel to begin with. it probably weighs ... what, 33-34 lbs? more? one would hope AR/ATX could take the time to center it.... OR, they left it lighter intentionally to compensate for TPMS. The question was asked earlier, was the wheel checked with TPMS installed? If their intention was to account for TPMS, hat's off for good thinking. I'm not sure how a MFR could expect to get it perfectly anymore, because of TPMS imbalance. OTOH, 2 oz off of a 33 pound assembly, I'm not sure I'd be concerned. A tech who is paying attention to quality will rotate the tire.


Yeah, the rim alone is about 37lbs and the full assembly about 66 lbs…

2 oz is for balance the rim, for full assembly it's about 4oz,even with tires rotated, tried today.

So, I guess the best would be to balance by adding those 4 oz, and use a Hubcentric ring for have it good adjusted on the car hub.

My only wonder is the fact it's 35 offsetand Jeep offset is 56.4. Any risk?

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