This is a question for those of you that are believers in using a upper cylinder lube, especially in classic and antique vehicles. I am wondering which is the preferred lube? MMO or TCw3? Or is it 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Don't tell me to not use either, because that is not the question, and I firmly think that on OLD engines it is good. When I farmed back in the 60's I used MMO all the time in my farm gas.
MMoil vs TCw3
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I think an oil would do a better job if it would be beneficial at all.
The first notice of upper cyl lube was at an Amoco station in the 50s. It was recommended for use with their unleaded high test.
I have always used MMO in engines to prevent problems with carburetors. Even used it for stuck rings, cleaning sludge motor etc. Some say snake oil but I beg to differ.
I've used various things over the years like Lucas, MMO, Seafoam, ATF, and TC-W3. I'm currently using TC-W3 in my van I like what I've seen so far that I'm going to continue using it.
For me: Smoother idle, better fuel economy, minor soot ring on the exhaust tip is gone, quieter engine and injectors, oil remains golden amber longer in the OCI.
I did the 250:1 first then 500:1 thereafter.
For me: Smoother idle, better fuel economy, minor soot ring on the exhaust tip is gone, quieter engine and injectors, oil remains golden amber longer in the OCI.
I did the 250:1 first then 500:1 thereafter.
I know my dad used to use MMO in his 79 Chevy van that had over 360k on it when he got rid of it. He added MMO to gas and oil, and changed the oil once a year whether it needed it or not. Hint: it definitely needed it! LOL
I don't have any kind of proof, since that was long before I was old enough to know or care about oils and engines, but I do think that back then, with "dirty" gas and "poor" engine oils, there may have been some benefit to using MMO to help dissolve some of the buildup from each of those fluids. Today, I don't know if the benefit of the product exceeds the cost of it. I think "older" engines fall into this same category- because the oils are better and the fuel is cleaner, I don't know if you still need MMO.
Same thing with TC-W3. Sure, I have used both products, but I can't say I've seen any benefits. Even when tracking mileage, checking UOAs, etc... nothing outside of statistical noise showed up. Can you use it because it makes you feel nostalgic, and like you're helping your machine? Certainly. Is there any anything other than anecdotal evidence to validate your use of these products? Most likely not.
Try one/either/both and see what your results are, and make a future decision based on that. That's about as honest an answer as I can give.
I don't have any kind of proof, since that was long before I was old enough to know or care about oils and engines, but I do think that back then, with "dirty" gas and "poor" engine oils, there may have been some benefit to using MMO to help dissolve some of the buildup from each of those fluids. Today, I don't know if the benefit of the product exceeds the cost of it. I think "older" engines fall into this same category- because the oils are better and the fuel is cleaner, I don't know if you still need MMO.
Same thing with TC-W3. Sure, I have used both products, but I can't say I've seen any benefits. Even when tracking mileage, checking UOAs, etc... nothing outside of statistical noise showed up. Can you use it because it makes you feel nostalgic, and like you're helping your machine? Certainly. Is there any anything other than anecdotal evidence to validate your use of these products? Most likely not.
Try one/either/both and see what your results are, and make a future decision based on that. That's about as honest an answer as I can give.
MolaKule
Staff member
What engine or kind of engine are we talking about?
The cylinder, whether upper and lower, is lubricated by engine oil.
MMO, in the old days, was used in the fuel to scavenge lead deposits from the piston crowns, etc.
MMO in oil only thins it.
The cylinder, whether upper and lower, is lubricated by engine oil.
MMO, in the old days, was used in the fuel to scavenge lead deposits from the piston crowns, etc.
MMO in oil only thins it.
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I am talking about the vehicles (not the Nissan) in my signature. And only in the gas, not the oil. I now mix MMO and Lead substitute in E0 gas, but have got a big jug of TCW3, so thinking of using it.
MolaKule
Staff member
OK, so this is a fuel additive question.
I cannot think of any chemical component within TCW3 that would be of any help in the fuel of an older engine.
The lead substitute would help with valve seats in engines that do not have "hardened" valve seats.
I cannot think of any chemical component within TCW3 that would be of any help in the fuel of an older engine.
The lead substitute would help with valve seats in engines that do not have "hardened" valve seats.
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So what you are saying is that there is no value to upper cylinder lubes? Or are you just saying that TCW3 is not a good upper cylinder. lube?
Originally Posted by old1
So what you are saying is that there is no value to upper cylinder lubes? Or are you just saying that TCW3 is not a good upper cylinder. lube?
What is it exactly in the upper cylinder that needs lube and isn't getting it from the oil, even in an old engine?
So what you are saying is that there is no value to upper cylinder lubes? Or are you just saying that TCW3 is not a good upper cylinder. lube?
What is it exactly in the upper cylinder that needs lube and isn't getting it from the oil, even in an old engine?
I guess that makes sense, but I do know that on the model A forum, a lot of the experts think it is good, so I do think I will keep using it in the A. Like it can't hurt.
Over and out.
Over and out.
In my Santa Fe not using a UCL I saw 1ppm chromium wear metals and a few PPM higher iron wear versus when I was using (at the time Lucas Fuel System additive) UCL. Whether this made a difference to the longevity who knows.
I did this a few times on/off to verify it was the Lucas making the difference and not some other variable.
Perhaps in its case it wasn't getting enough lube from the engine oil to the whole cylinder as Mola describes.
I did this a few times on/off to verify it was the Lucas making the difference and not some other variable.
Perhaps in its case it wasn't getting enough lube from the engine oil to the whole cylinder as Mola describes.
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MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by old1
So what you are saying is that there is no value to upper cylinder lubes?
Yes because as other posts have stated, it is the engine oil that lubricates the "Whole" cylinder, as in upper cylinder and lower cylinder.
The whole concept of adding to fuel and using any so-called upper cylinder lubricant is bogus, because it is the engine oil that lubricates the upper cylinder and lower cylinder. Engine oil lubricates the "Whole" cylinder,
Originally Posted by old1
Or are you just saying that TCW3 is not a good upper cylinder. lube?
I am saying there are no chemical components in TCW3 that will provide any upper OR lower cylinder lubrication, which is a bogus concept, since Engine oil lubricates the "Whole" cylinder,
Originally Posted by old1
I guess that makes sense, but I do know that on the model A forum, a lot of the experts think it is good, so I do think I will keep using it in the A. Like it can't hurt.
Over and out.
There are a lot of shade-tree mechanic myths and misinformation out there on the Internet.
Lack of harm doesn't mean there is any advantage to it, except as wallet lighteners for the misinformed.
So what you are saying is that there is no value to upper cylinder lubes?
Yes because as other posts have stated, it is the engine oil that lubricates the "Whole" cylinder, as in upper cylinder and lower cylinder.
The whole concept of adding to fuel and using any so-called upper cylinder lubricant is bogus, because it is the engine oil that lubricates the upper cylinder and lower cylinder. Engine oil lubricates the "Whole" cylinder,
Originally Posted by old1
Or are you just saying that TCW3 is not a good upper cylinder. lube?
I am saying there are no chemical components in TCW3 that will provide any upper OR lower cylinder lubrication, which is a bogus concept, since Engine oil lubricates the "Whole" cylinder,
Originally Posted by old1
I guess that makes sense, but I do know that on the model A forum, a lot of the experts think it is good, so I do think I will keep using it in the A. Like it can't hurt.
Over and out.
There are a lot of shade-tree mechanic myths and misinformation out there on the Internet.
Lack of harm doesn't mean there is any advantage to it, except as wallet lighteners for the misinformed.
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
I am saying there are no chemical components in TCW3 that will provide any upper OR lower cylinder lubrication, which is an bogus concept, since Engine oil lubricates the "Whole" cylinder,
How does it lubricate 2 stroke engines then? Asking seriously, not being confrontational. Also why do Gasoline blenders add lubricants to their fuels?
I am saying there are no chemical components in TCW3 that will provide any upper OR lower cylinder lubrication, which is an bogus concept, since Engine oil lubricates the "Whole" cylinder,
How does it lubricate 2 stroke engines then? Asking seriously, not being confrontational. Also why do Gasoline blenders add lubricants to their fuels?
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MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by MolaKule
I am saying there are no chemical components in TCW3 that will provide any upper OR lower cylinder lubrication, which is an bogus concept, since Engine oil lubricates the "Whole" cylinder,
How does it lubricate 2 stroke engines then? Asking seriously, not being confrontational. Also why do Gasoline blenders add lubricants to their fuels?
Good question.
1) 2-stroke engines do not have a sump to allow the slinging of oil onto the cylinder walls nor do they have a pressurized oiling system.
2) 2-stroke engines are ""one-pass" or "total-loss oiling systems" so the mixture passes through the whole system on one pass and the lubricant added to gasoline has to control deposits, lubricate bearings, lubricate the rings, lubricate the cylinder walls, enhance combustion, and reduce wear.
What lubricants do fuel blenders add to gasoline?
Originally Posted by MolaKule
I am saying there are no chemical components in TCW3 that will provide any upper OR lower cylinder lubrication, which is an bogus concept, since Engine oil lubricates the "Whole" cylinder,
How does it lubricate 2 stroke engines then? Asking seriously, not being confrontational. Also why do Gasoline blenders add lubricants to their fuels?
Good question.
1) 2-stroke engines do not have a sump to allow the slinging of oil onto the cylinder walls nor do they have a pressurized oiling system.
2) 2-stroke engines are ""one-pass" or "total-loss oiling systems" so the mixture passes through the whole system on one pass and the lubricant added to gasoline has to control deposits, lubricate bearings, lubricate the rings, lubricate the cylinder walls, enhance combustion, and reduce wear.
What lubricants do fuel blenders add to gasoline?
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So how does adding it to the fuel of a 4-stroke not lubricate the upper end of the engine until the fuel is combusted? ... I think I'm missing something here and I apologize in advance.
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MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by StevieC
So how does adding it to the fuel of a 4-stroke not lubricate the upper end of the engine until the fuel is combusted? ... I think I'm missing something here and I apologize in advance.
You have to first establish that it does. How does a few molecules of an oily substance in gasoline provide lubrication that a film of engine oil (containing millions of molecules of oil and AWs, FMs, etc) does not?
So how does adding it to the fuel of a 4-stroke not lubricate the upper end of the engine until the fuel is combusted? ... I think I'm missing something here and I apologize in advance.
You have to first establish that it does. How does a few molecules of an oily substance in gasoline provide lubrication that a film of engine oil (containing millions of molecules of oil and AWs, FMs, etc) does not?
I'm not disputing that the Engine oil doesn't provide some lubrication to the UC area but it may not be optimal and including some in the fuel would add to what is available which I think is why when I used Lucas fuel system cleaner which is essentially a light oil with a low flash point loaded with calcium, it decreased the chromium and iron in my UOA's every time I would reintroduce it back to the fuel system.
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