I just change it every oil change. For the cost, I feel it's the right thing to do. Would I be hurting anything (as my engines are cleaned and well maintained?) Dunno. YMMV.
How Often Should You Change Your Oil Filter?
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20K miles for me, that's 3 OCI
Originally Posted by Bill_W
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
No way, seems the consistence is that cleaner oil makes no difference. I'll just ignore the filter ... who needs 'em? Just run a good air filter.
But everyone here ignores the filter package that says the filter is good for 20,000 miles. Personally all for clean oil but start with change oil often and a high efficiency air filter and change oil filter with the oil change.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/681/oil-filter
Read down to the end of this article.
Yep, and it says: "Any dirt that gets past the air filter enters the engine, becoming the enemy of all lubricated components. This makes the oil filter's job more challenging."
So does that equate to using a low efficiency oil filter to better achieve the role of being the oil cleaning component when contamination does happen to get into the oil?
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
No way, seems the consistence is that cleaner oil makes no difference. I'll just ignore the filter ... who needs 'em? Just run a good air filter.
But everyone here ignores the filter package that says the filter is good for 20,000 miles. Personally all for clean oil but start with change oil often and a high efficiency air filter and change oil filter with the oil change.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/681/oil-filter
Read down to the end of this article.
Yep, and it says: "Any dirt that gets past the air filter enters the engine, becoming the enemy of all lubricated components. This makes the oil filter's job more challenging."
So does that equate to using a low efficiency oil filter to better achieve the role of being the oil cleaning component when contamination does happen to get into the oil?
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Bill_W
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
No way, seems the consistence is that cleaner oil makes no difference. I'll just ignore the filter ... who needs 'em? Just run a good air filter.
But everyone here ignores the filter package that says the filter is good for 20,000 miles. Personally all for clean oil but start with change oil often and a high efficiency air filter and change oil filter with the oil change.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/681/oil-filter
Read down to the end of this article.
Yep, and it says: "Any dirt that gets past the air filter enters the engine, becoming the enemy of all lubricated components. This makes the oil filter's job more challenging."
So does that equate to using a low efficiency oil filter to better achieve the role of being the oil cleaning component when contamination does happen to get into the oil?
I am glad you asked Zee...
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/31252/filtration-particles-capture
As nothing is black and white there is some give and take in everything.
quote...
Oil filter design is somewhat of a balancing act between particulate size, filter medium, surface area of filter medium and oil pressure. The finer the filter medium, the shorter a filter's lifespan before it begins to show pressure drop and the oil filter bypass valve is opened.
One point on the above link is cake filtering, by which the filter loads up. After a point the particles become desorbed in the filter and the gains in filter loading fall off. While direct filter pass is important, I believe there is more to the picture. The Ultra has a bypass PSI of 12, and some believe that bypass events do not happen. I do. The number of pleats in the filter become important to for filter loading. (IMO)
Originally Posted by Bill_W
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
No way, seems the consistence is that cleaner oil makes no difference. I'll just ignore the filter ... who needs 'em? Just run a good air filter.
But everyone here ignores the filter package that says the filter is good for 20,000 miles. Personally all for clean oil but start with change oil often and a high efficiency air filter and change oil filter with the oil change.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/681/oil-filter
Read down to the end of this article.
Yep, and it says: "Any dirt that gets past the air filter enters the engine, becoming the enemy of all lubricated components. This makes the oil filter's job more challenging."
So does that equate to using a low efficiency oil filter to better achieve the role of being the oil cleaning component when contamination does happen to get into the oil?
I am glad you asked Zee...
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/31252/filtration-particles-capture
As nothing is black and white there is some give and take in everything.
quote...
Oil filter design is somewhat of a balancing act between particulate size, filter medium, surface area of filter medium and oil pressure. The finer the filter medium, the shorter a filter's lifespan before it begins to show pressure drop and the oil filter bypass valve is opened.
One point on the above link is cake filtering, by which the filter loads up. After a point the particles become desorbed in the filter and the gains in filter loading fall off. While direct filter pass is important, I believe there is more to the picture. The Ultra has a bypass PSI of 12, and some believe that bypass events do not happen. I do. The number of pleats in the filter become important to for filter loading. (IMO)
Originally Posted by Bill_W
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Bill_W
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
No way, seems the consistence is that cleaner oil makes no difference. I'll just ignore the filter ... who needs 'em? Just run a good air filter.
But everyone here ignores the filter package that says the filter is good for 20,000 miles. Personally all for clean oil but start with change oil often and a high efficiency air filter and change oil filter with the oil change.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/681/oil-filter
Read down to the end of this article.
Yep, and it says: "Any dirt that gets past the air filter enters the engine, becoming the enemy of all lubricated components. This makes the oil filter's job more challenging."
So does that equate to using a low efficiency oil filter to better achieve the role of being the oil cleaning component when contamination does happen to get into the oil?
I am glad you asked Zee...
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/31252/filtration-particles-capture
As nothing is black and white there is some give and take in everything.
quote...
Oil filter design is somewhat of a balancing act between particulate size, filter medium, surface area of filter medium and oil pressure. The finer the filter medium, the shorter a filter's lifespan before it begins to show pressure drop and the oil filter bypass valve is opened.
One point on the above link is cake filtering, by which the filter loads up. After a point the particles become desorbed in the filter and the gains in filter loading fall off. While direct filter pass is important, I believe there is more to the picture. The Ultra has a bypass PSI of 12, and some believe that bypass events do not happen. I do. The number of pleats in the filter become important to for filter loading. (IMO)
That article doesn't even address the performance differences between media types, which is a lot. They say: "The finer the filter medium, the shorter a filter's lifespan before it begins to show pressure drop and the oil filter bypass valve is opened." That might be true about cellulose media, but not for full synthetic media which has much more holding capacity and doesn't load up as fast. That's why most full synthetic media oil filters are rated for much longer use than cellulose media filters. The differences between cellulose and full synthetic media oil filters has been hashed for 10+ years around here.
The chances of a full synthetic filter going into bypass under the same loading of debris is much lower than with a cellulose filter. I don't think anyone here believes "bypass events do not happen." I've never seen anybody say that.
And the number of pleats in an oil filter is only useful if comparing two filters of the same brand and exact same media to compare media area. All filter media is by far not created equal, so trying to compare a cellulose filter to a full synthetic filter by pleat number is completely useless.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Bill_W
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
No way, seems the consistence is that cleaner oil makes no difference. I'll just ignore the filter ... who needs 'em? Just run a good air filter.
But everyone here ignores the filter package that says the filter is good for 20,000 miles. Personally all for clean oil but start with change oil often and a high efficiency air filter and change oil filter with the oil change.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/681/oil-filter
Read down to the end of this article.
Yep, and it says: "Any dirt that gets past the air filter enters the engine, becoming the enemy of all lubricated components. This makes the oil filter's job more challenging."
So does that equate to using a low efficiency oil filter to better achieve the role of being the oil cleaning component when contamination does happen to get into the oil?
I am glad you asked Zee...
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/31252/filtration-particles-capture
As nothing is black and white there is some give and take in everything.
quote...
Oil filter design is somewhat of a balancing act between particulate size, filter medium, surface area of filter medium and oil pressure. The finer the filter medium, the shorter a filter's lifespan before it begins to show pressure drop and the oil filter bypass valve is opened.
One point on the above link is cake filtering, by which the filter loads up. After a point the particles become desorbed in the filter and the gains in filter loading fall off. While direct filter pass is important, I believe there is more to the picture. The Ultra has a bypass PSI of 12, and some believe that bypass events do not happen. I do. The number of pleats in the filter become important to for filter loading. (IMO)
That article doesn't even address the performance differences between media types, which is a lot. They say: "The finer the filter medium, the shorter a filter's lifespan before it begins to show pressure drop and the oil filter bypass valve is opened." That might be true about cellulose media, but not for full synthetic media which has much more holding capacity and doesn't load up as fast. That's why most full synthetic media oil filters are rated for much longer use than cellulose media filters. The differences between cellulose and full synthetic media oil filters has been hashed for 10+ years around here.
The chances of a full synthetic filter going into bypass under the same loading of debris is much lower than with a cellulose filter. I don't think anyone here believes "bypass events do not happen." I've never seen anybody say that.
And the number of pleats in an oil filter is only useful if comparing two filters of the same brand and exact same media to compare media area. All filter media is by far not created equal, so trying to compare a cellulose filter to a full synthetic filter by pleat number is completely useless.
Just for conversation...
Oh... I think the media type is a given in a modern filter conversation (IMO). Also that the finer media is really good to have. But I can not think of any way to get 20,000 miles advertised when other filters use the same media without desorbed particles and bypass valve operations when some OEM specs are going to 35 PSI (very specific) and other aftermarket bypass valve settings are 22 Psi plus. There is a plus and a minus for everything. There are two things you can do for sure, change your oil and have the most efficient air cleaner. But I am with you that oil filter efficiency is a good thing, just not blind to that only.
Oh... I think the media type is a given in a modern filter conversation (IMO). Also that the finer media is really good to have. But I can not think of any way to get 20,000 miles advertised when other filters use the same media without desorbed particles and bypass valve operations when some OEM specs are going to 35 PSI (very specific) and other aftermarket bypass valve settings are 22 Psi plus. There is a plus and a minus for everything. There are two things you can do for sure, change your oil and have the most efficient air cleaner. But I am with you that oil filter efficiency is a good thing, just not blind to that only.
Originally Posted by Bill_W
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/31252/filtration-particles-capture
BTW ... just wanted to comment on something from the article that ties together with the graph and info that Purolator/Mann+Hummel came up with associated with filter efficiency as it loads up and the delta-p across the media increases.
From the Machinery Lubrication article, it says:
Particle Desorption
Particles that somehow escape the filters add to the particle concentration level downstream of the filter. These particles were either unfilterable, bypassed, or desorbed. Hence, a particle in the effluent exists due to one of the following reasons:
1) it is too small to be captured by filter medium
2) it avoided capture by taking an alternate flow passage - bypass leakage
3) it was forced through a pore space by the pressure differential across the medium
4) it migrated through tortuous passages due to the effects of flow surges
In a new filter, no particles can be sloughed because none exist in the media; however, in a partially loaded element, a great number of particles are present that could be released. Hence the term "desorbed" is reserved for cases where captured particles in the media become dislodged and escape to the effluent.
The item #3 above in red ties in with this graph:
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/31252/filtration-particles-capture
BTW ... just wanted to comment on something from the article that ties together with the graph and info that Purolator/Mann+Hummel came up with associated with filter efficiency as it loads up and the delta-p across the media increases.
From the Machinery Lubrication article, it says:
Particle Desorption
Particles that somehow escape the filters add to the particle concentration level downstream of the filter. These particles were either unfilterable, bypassed, or desorbed. Hence, a particle in the effluent exists due to one of the following reasons:
1) it is too small to be captured by filter medium
2) it avoided capture by taking an alternate flow passage - bypass leakage
3) it was forced through a pore space by the pressure differential across the medium
4) it migrated through tortuous passages due to the effects of flow surges
In a new filter, no particles can be sloughed because none exist in the media; however, in a partially loaded element, a great number of particles are present that could be released. Hence the term "desorbed" is reserved for cases where captured particles in the media become dislodged and escape to the effluent.
The item #3 above in red ties in with this graph:
Originally Posted by Bill_W
Just for conversation...
Oh... I think the media type is a given in a modern filter conversation (IMO). Also that the finer media is really good to have. But I can not think of any way to get 20,000 miles advertised when other filters use the same media without desorbed particles and bypass valve operations when some OEM specs are going to 35 PSI (very specific) and other aftermarket bypass valve settings are 22 Psi plus. There is a plus and a minus for everything. There are two things you can do for sure, change your oil and have the most efficient air cleaner. But I am with you that oil filter efficiency is a good thing, just not blind to that only.
FYI ... the ISO 4548-12 test is rating the filter in the realm of use where debris loading would not be enough to open the bypass valve. So in other words, if a filter was rated at 99% @ 20u and had a 12 PSI bypass valve, and had a big holding capacity (which is also measured in the test) for the manufacturer to say it's 'good for up to 20K miles', then the manufacturer is saying the filter should go 20K miles and hold that debris before the bypass valve would open due to loading.
Of course keep in mind that as any filter starts loading up more and more the delta-p will naturally increase some, and that then leaves less headroom until the bypass valve could open. So yeah, change oil filters when they should be changed and try not to run them forever way over their rated spec.
Just for conversation...
Oh... I think the media type is a given in a modern filter conversation (IMO). Also that the finer media is really good to have. But I can not think of any way to get 20,000 miles advertised when other filters use the same media without desorbed particles and bypass valve operations when some OEM specs are going to 35 PSI (very specific) and other aftermarket bypass valve settings are 22 Psi plus. There is a plus and a minus for everything. There are two things you can do for sure, change your oil and have the most efficient air cleaner. But I am with you that oil filter efficiency is a good thing, just not blind to that only.
FYI ... the ISO 4548-12 test is rating the filter in the realm of use where debris loading would not be enough to open the bypass valve. So in other words, if a filter was rated at 99% @ 20u and had a 12 PSI bypass valve, and had a big holding capacity (which is also measured in the test) for the manufacturer to say it's 'good for up to 20K miles', then the manufacturer is saying the filter should go 20K miles and hold that debris before the bypass valve would open due to loading.
Of course keep in mind that as any filter starts loading up more and more the delta-p will naturally increase some, and that then leaves less headroom until the bypass valve could open. So yeah, change oil filters when they should be changed and try not to run them forever way over their rated spec.
Thanks Zee... Added to your information of the test that lasted 80 minutes and was subject to particles that overloaded the filter is another part of the dynamics.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/filter-medium
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/filter-medium
Originally Posted by Sayjac
Making them no different than most other companies that sell a product. Case in point along a similar line, Fram Air Filter box recommendation for replacement is every 12k miles. Now I've it relayed to me on good authority that recommendation is mostly about selling filters, not about an actual need to replace the AF at every 12k miles. Which also holds true ime.
Agreed. Richard Widman and I have both groused here about some of Nissan/Infiniti's low air filter intervals, but even they are higher than that!
Making them no different than most other companies that sell a product. Case in point along a similar line, Fram Air Filter box recommendation for replacement is every 12k miles. Now I've it relayed to me on good authority that recommendation is mostly about selling filters, not about an actual need to replace the AF at every 12k miles. Which also holds true ime.
Agreed. Richard Widman and I have both groused here about some of Nissan/Infiniti's low air filter intervals, but even they are higher than that!
In my 2011 1500 I did two changes per Fram ultra. That would float around 20 to 24,000km. Seemed just fine.
Originally Posted by jongies3
Every oil change. Would you take a shower and put your old undies back on? I'd hope not! Lol, same goes for an oil filter, I like fresh new oil with a new filter.
Do you throw away your shoes after one use? Or do you put them back on until they are too worn?
Fact is the VAST majority of oil filters are tossed away without even coming anywhere near fully loaded up/used up. Fact.
Every oil change. Would you take a shower and put your old undies back on? I'd hope not! Lol, same goes for an oil filter, I like fresh new oil with a new filter.
Do you throw away your shoes after one use? Or do you put them back on until they are too worn?
Fact is the VAST majority of oil filters are tossed away without even coming anywhere near fully loaded up/used up. Fact.
Originally Posted by gfh77665
Originally Posted by jongies3
Every oil change. Would you take a shower and put your old undies back on? I'd hope not! Lol, same goes for an oil filter, I like fresh new oil with a new filter.
Do you throw away your shoes after one use? Or do you put them back on until they are too worn?
Fact is the VAST majority of oil filters are tossed away without even coming anywhere near fully loaded up/used up. Fact.
No but I don't run 5w-30 in my shoes.
However I do change my socks the shoe filter so to speak.
Originally Posted by jongies3
Every oil change. Would you take a shower and put your old undies back on? I'd hope not! Lol, same goes for an oil filter, I like fresh new oil with a new filter.
Do you throw away your shoes after one use? Or do you put them back on until they are too worn?
Fact is the VAST majority of oil filters are tossed away without even coming anywhere near fully loaded up/used up. Fact.
No but I don't run 5w-30 in my shoes.
However I do change my socks the shoe filter so to speak.
Last edited:
Does anyone remember some ‘ancient' history as I do?
Maybe this is a data point / reason for various filter change habits.
Back in the 1960's & 1970's, it was common that manufacturers specified an oil filter change every other oil change.
By the 1980's there was a campaign to change the filter every oil change. Not sure of the origins of this, but later it was claimed that the used oil left in filter would damage the new oil, actually ‘unzipping' the long-chain additive molecules in the new oil!
Does anyone remember this? I recall that my Dad & I discussed this - same info with different sources.
If there was any truth to this in the 1980's, then hopefully the new-generation oils / additives have been improved to avoid this effect!
In any case, with the many discussions about oil stress / fuel dilution, especially on Turbo / DI engines, I would think that everyone would try to remove as much used oil as possible on each oil change.
Maybe this is a data point / reason for various filter change habits.
Back in the 1960's & 1970's, it was common that manufacturers specified an oil filter change every other oil change.
By the 1980's there was a campaign to change the filter every oil change. Not sure of the origins of this, but later it was claimed that the used oil left in filter would damage the new oil, actually ‘unzipping' the long-chain additive molecules in the new oil!
Does anyone remember this? I recall that my Dad & I discussed this - same info with different sources.
If there was any truth to this in the 1980's, then hopefully the new-generation oils / additives have been improved to avoid this effect!
In any case, with the many discussions about oil stress / fuel dilution, especially on Turbo / DI engines, I would think that everyone would try to remove as much used oil as possible on each oil change.
Quote
Every oil change. I like fresh new oil with a new filter.
I too prefer to change the oil filter and the oil at the same time.
Every oil change. I like fresh new oil with a new filter.
I too prefer to change the oil filter and the oil at the same time.
I've seen enough short-OCI oil filters that have made me say, "ew... I'm glad that's being changed."
Oil is the lifeblood of the engine and is the most important filter on the car. I'll pay the $5.
Skipping a 7,500 mile filter until 15,000 miles saves $65 over 200,000 miles.
...Assuming the every 15,000 miles car makes it to 200,000 without an oil problem.
People pay (sometimes much) more to have a filter durable enough for long OCI. A case could be made that it's better to change the filter more often with a cheaper filter than less often with a more expensive filter. And it's fairly common to hear people say they use NAPA Gold filter instead of the more expensive Platinum because the Platinum may be more durable for a long OCI but the Gold filters better.
And you know what else? People can have an emotional attachment to cars, and working on cars.
I'll change the oil filter every oil change because, dammit, it makes me feel good to have a new one on there.
Originally Posted by gfh77665
Do you throw away your shoes after one use? Or do you put them back on until they are too worn?
You'd probably throw away your shoes if they have 7,500 miles on them.
Oil is the lifeblood of the engine and is the most important filter on the car. I'll pay the $5.
Skipping a 7,500 mile filter until 15,000 miles saves $65 over 200,000 miles.
...Assuming the every 15,000 miles car makes it to 200,000 without an oil problem.
People pay (sometimes much) more to have a filter durable enough for long OCI. A case could be made that it's better to change the filter more often with a cheaper filter than less often with a more expensive filter. And it's fairly common to hear people say they use NAPA Gold filter instead of the more expensive Platinum because the Platinum may be more durable for a long OCI but the Gold filters better.
And you know what else? People can have an emotional attachment to cars, and working on cars.
I'll change the oil filter every oil change because, dammit, it makes me feel good to have a new one on there.
Originally Posted by gfh77665
Do you throw away your shoes after one use? Or do you put them back on until they are too worn?
You'd probably throw away your shoes if they have 7,500 miles on them.
Originally Posted by dnewton3
The linked Napa info is just drivel. Not one shred of data other than "cheap insurance" advice, suitable for the masses.
There are, as has been discussed before many times, some OEMs that actually recommend the FCI at 2x the OCI. My daughter's 2000 Galant was one of them. 7.5k miles for normal oil changes; 15k miles for normal filter changes. Engine finally failed at 210k miles with a cracked head; not the fault of the oil or filter. I took the head off a few times in a vain attempt to diagnose and repair, but ultimately it was doomed. Under the valve cover was super clean. Cylinder walls were still faintly cross-hatched. All this on dino oil "normal" changes.
Some Honda MC engines also have the FCI at 2x the OCI.
The reality is that the Napa linked info is just mindless drivel for the mindless masses. There's no tangible data discussed. It's just hype to sell oil and filters.
As has been exemplified here many times with many experiments over the years, OFCIs can easily be run at 2x or 3x the OEM recommended limits in many applications, and yet wear rates and sludge concerns remain low.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
All day, everyday, and every day that ends with a "y"...
If I get out 92% of my old oil pit when I drain it... Why am I worried about 8 percent old oil left behind?? 156 ozs total. 144 typically come out when I change it...
I bet some larger Fram Ultra, Mobil 1 and Wix XP oil filters could go 30k miles plus. Easily. Oil matters way more than a new filter each time. And a air filter matters more than that. A good Fram Ultra air filter that is 99% per ISO 5011 brand new is more important. A Wix air filter is even a touch better at 99.5% per ISO 5011. And look at the beta ratios per 100,000 particles passed... It is quite a difference between a poor efficiency air filter and a good one.
The linked Napa info is just drivel. Not one shred of data other than "cheap insurance" advice, suitable for the masses.
There are, as has been discussed before many times, some OEMs that actually recommend the FCI at 2x the OCI. My daughter's 2000 Galant was one of them. 7.5k miles for normal oil changes; 15k miles for normal filter changes. Engine finally failed at 210k miles with a cracked head; not the fault of the oil or filter. I took the head off a few times in a vain attempt to diagnose and repair, but ultimately it was doomed. Under the valve cover was super clean. Cylinder walls were still faintly cross-hatched. All this on dino oil "normal" changes.
Some Honda MC engines also have the FCI at 2x the OCI.
The reality is that the Napa linked info is just mindless drivel for the mindless masses. There's no tangible data discussed. It's just hype to sell oil and filters.
As has been exemplified here many times with many experiments over the years, OFCIs can easily be run at 2x or 3x the OEM recommended limits in many applications, and yet wear rates and sludge concerns remain low.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
All day, everyday, and every day that ends with a "y"...
If I get out 92% of my old oil pit when I drain it... Why am I worried about 8 percent old oil left behind?? 156 ozs total. 144 typically come out when I change it...
I bet some larger Fram Ultra, Mobil 1 and Wix XP oil filters could go 30k miles plus. Easily. Oil matters way more than a new filter each time. And a air filter matters more than that. A good Fram Ultra air filter that is 99% per ISO 5011 brand new is more important. A Wix air filter is even a touch better at 99.5% per ISO 5011. And look at the beta ratios per 100,000 particles passed... It is quite a difference between a poor efficiency air filter and a good one.
I change the filter at every oil change and typically once a year.
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