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Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: 2015_PSD] #5073027 04/12/19 06:43 PM
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Shannow Offline
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Yeah but in the thread that got moved to the humour section I got accused of not engaging in scientific discussion....which as you know, I've been trying though the
* trinuclear moly
* high "W" number means better protection
* uber high VII means more protection
* BOQI
* BOQI2 where HTHS is mashed in because BOQI doesn't work.
* now this.

Unfortunately, being only a mechanical engineer with 30 years experience, a decade in turbine maintnenance and bearing lubrication and design, I have to ask dumb questions.


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Shannow] #5073035 04/12/19 06:50 PM
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2015_PSD Offline
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Originally Posted by Shannow
Yeah but in the thread that got moved to the humour section I got accused of not engaging in scientific discussion....which as you know, I've been trying though the
* trinuclear moly
* high "W" number means better protection
* uber high VII means more protection
* BOQI
* BOQI2 where HTHS is mashed in because BOQI doesn't work.
* now this.

Unfortunately, being only a mechanical engineer with 30 years experience, a decade in turbine maintnenance and bearing lubrication and design, I have to ask dumb questions.
Copy that.


2019 o)|||||(o Rubicon Wrangler Unlimited 3.6L V6 [Castrol Edge + Mahle]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum + Mann filter]
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5073089 04/12/19 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by FordCapriDriver
So if i want to minimize say valvetrain wear, the way to go is a thick base oil and hefty does of AW additives?

Yes, especially for a classic car like yours and other classic cars, you need a thick base oil, such as a 10W-30, 15W-40, and even SAE 30 or SAE 40 if the climate allows them, to reduce the camshaft and ring wear. Amsoil ACD 10W-30/SAE 30 is a great choice for example but there are cheaper choices as well. Look at the second table with the improved calculation to pick an oil with a thick base oil (high HTFSV). Valvoline Advanced Synthetic (VAS) 5W-20 is also an exceptional choice but it may not be the best choice for all classic cars, as they may require a high HTHSV for bearing protection in addition to a thick base oil (high HTFSV).

You don't need a heavy dose of ZDDP these days because other modern AW/EP/FM additives are also used in addition to ZDDP now. In fact, most CK-4 HDEOs now get away with 800 ppm phosphorus. Too much ZDDP (over 1200 ppm phosphorus) or an unbalanced additive package (such as using aftermarket additives) can make things worse and increase wear.

Also, don't neglect the importance of an oil's TBN/TAN/base-oil-oxidation performance and/or OCI length/frequent-enough oil changes, as the corrosion of lead, copper, and chromium is an important factor that increases the bearing and ring wear.

I think this post helped me finally distill something I had been thinking about for a while.

Gokhan, I have a thought.

What tends to happen in these threads is that you post your hypotheses, list the conclusions you draw, and then dive happily into advice. Then people do what they will with it, and an argument usually results that consumes the thread.

Why not try posting with more of an ears-open posture? E.g.: "Here's my idea. What does everyone think? Is it worth pursuing? How can we make it better?" Stick doggedly to tentative language, and decline requests for actionable advice.

The way it is now leaves people with nothing to do besides agree or disagree. That polarizes people and forecloses on a lot of opportunity for worthwhile discussion. If we replaced the confident conclusions and advice with questions and open-minded discussion, there'd be a lot more opportunity to move the ball down the field, and I'd bet good money these threads wouldn't turn so sour every time.

FWIW.


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5073247 04/13/19 12:58 AM
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I think what Gokhan is trying to say is that he wants to switch from 0Wx20 to 10Wx30 or x40 since he lives in CA. grin2

Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Shannow] #5073676 04/13/19 01:06 PM
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edyvw Online Content
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Originally Posted by Shannow
So the units are viscosity ?

What correlation does say a number of "4" have with any actual, measured parameter ?

How does it relate to the Stribeck curve ?

How does it fit into the Somerfeld number, when it comes to calculating MOFT ?

I mean there's a whole science about tribology that had been around for a century...where does this new calculated viscosity actually fit into the science ?

We are going to have to read one of those peer reviewed articles published by Gokhan, I guess.


11' BMW 328i xDrive 6MT (BMW TPT 5W30+OE filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W30+OE filter)
15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: OilUzer] #5073678 04/13/19 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by OilUzer
I think what Gokhan is trying to say is that he wants to switch from 0Wx20 to 10Wx30 or x40 since he lives in CA. grin2

Well, in that case he would lose those 50hp he gained in Corolla by switching to 0W20.


11' BMW 328i xDrive 6MT (BMW TPT 5W30+OE filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W30+OE filter)
15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: edyvw] #5073682 04/13/19 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by OilUzer
I think what Gokhan is trying to say is that he wants to switch from 0Wx20 to 10Wx30 or x40 since he lives in CA. grin2

Well, in that case he would lose those 50hp he gained in Corolla by switching to 0W20.

LOL crackmeup popcorn trolling


2004 Corolla 138348
Out: Havoline Pro DS 10w-30 Purolator PureOne 10-29-19 136457
In: Pennzoil Platinum HM 5W-20 ST 4386
2006 Duramax 77060
Out: T6 5W-40 XG9100 73909
In: Rotella Dino PH9100 11-3-19
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5073742 04/13/19 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
]...The shear rates at parts of the pistons and valvetrain are too large for the viscosity-index improver (VII) to have any significant effect on wear -- they simply get squeezed out and you're left in the boundary or mixed lubrication regime with an atomic layer of oil and additive films...


Question: At what force in Newtons or milliNewtons or microNewtons do the VII, oil, or other molecules get separated out due to this "squeezing" effect?

Are you attempting to describe some new method of molecular separation?

Some observations: It appears many of the indices presented on BITOG, past and present, rest on dubious assumptions and then those dubious assumptions are then placed into equations in which none of the coefficients have been established through Least Squares or Polynomial curve fitting, nor have any of these indices been verified via lab testing.

So I think we have to view these suggested indices, while interesting, in terms of unverified Hypotheses.





Last edited by MolaKule; 04/13/19 03:20 PM.

Charlie Eppes: "What do you think we should do now?"
Don Eppes: "The same thing when I was in school and I didn't know the answer – fake it." From NUMB3RS
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5073782 04/13/19 03:20 PM
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Gokhan Offline OP
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The motivation behind and summary of the calculation:

What is being calculated (estimated) here is the base-oil dynamic viscosity at 150 C (cP units), which I called the high-temperature, full-shear viscosity (HTFSV).

It's an estimate only.

  • First, the A_Harman index using the Widman operational-viscosity extrapolation to 150 C and density extrapolation from 15 C to 150 C by multiplying with 0.905 (improvement over A_Harman's 0.885 number) is calculated. A_Harman index is the ratio of the measured high-shear dynamic viscosity at 150 C to the extrapolated low-shear dynamic viscosity at 150 C.
  • The VII treat rate (content) is taken to be (1 - A_Harman index)/2.
  • 1% of VII is assumed to increase the low-shear viscosity by 15%.
  • Finally, the base-oil viscosity at 150 C is calculated to be the extrapolated low-shear viscosity divided by (1 + VII treat rate*15).


Note that HTFSV is not an index or rating. It's an actual property of the oil -- dynamic viscosity at 150 C without the contribution of the VII -- that is the base-oil dynamic viscosity at 150 C.

Motivation behind the calculation:

Several studies suggest that it's not the HTHSV that protects against wear in certain valvetrain or cylinder/ring components but it's the base-oil viscosity. These parts work in the boundary- or mixed-lubrication regimes, where the shear rates are too high or the oil film is too thin for the HTHSV to be applicable. Of course, the physics of this lubrication regimes is very complicated and no one really understands what is going on. If someone says otherwise, they don't know what they are talking about. I calculated the base-oil viscosity (HTFSV) as a helpful property for those who may have lubrication problems in these regimes, such as for classic cars with frequent cam failures, ring/liner failures, certain diesel engines, etc. You can argue how helpful it is.

Some studies:

Development of low-viscosity API SN 0W-16 fuel-saving engine oil considering chain-wear performance
(Nissan study)

Excerpt: Second, it was found that the base oil viscosity and molybdenum dithiocarbamate (MoDTC) had a significant effect on chain wear in rig testing that simulated silent chain wear. For the same base oil viscosity, the new oil maintains the same oil film thickness under high surface pressure.

Chevron study showed higher wear with thinner base oil/higher VII content (lower xW in xW-y) for sooted HDEO:

Global perspective on base-oil quality and how it effects lubricants specifications

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Another Chevron study showed that SAE 40 has less cylinder liner wear than SAE 15W-40 in two-cycle diesel engines:

Field Performance of SAE 15W-40 Mul... Using Current and New Piston Fire Rings

[Linked Image]

These are just a few studies but no one should deny the role of the base-oil viscosity in boundary- or mixed-lubrication regimes. Bearing lubrication is extremely simple because it happens in the hydrodynamic-lubrication regime with a thick oil film and the high-temperature, high-shear viscosity (HTHSV) is sufficient to describe it but the valvetrain and cylinders/pistons are very complicated and the simply HTHSV concept does not suffice.

It's also the biggest challenge in ILSAC GF-6: How can they incorporate the whole range of base-oil viscosities and types so that they would all perform within the same wear limits?

Infineum: No firm date for GF-6 launch

"Lubricants must be reformulated into a single ILSAC GF-6 core chemistry that matches the desired performance limits and deployed across the ever-widening scope of base stocks and viscosity grades required by the market."

Repeating the table for the HTFSV (base-oil dynamic viscosity at 150 C) below:

[Linked Image]


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 2,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5073971 04/13/19 07:16 PM
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Garak Offline
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Note that HTFSV is not an index or rating. It's an actual property of the oil -- dynamic viscosity at 150 C without the contribution of the VII -- that is the base-oil dynamic viscosity at 150 C.

Can that be demonstrated in a repeatable and reproducible fashion?

I get that you don't like the tone of some of the criticism, and I'm as guilty as any of coming across as straightforward and/or dismissive. You've defended dissertations before, though, and you know exactly how well what you've done here so far would stand up to peer review or a graduate degree supervisor, much less a committee. So, instead of being offended here and taking shots at each other, let's address the ideas.

You claim to be working at an actual property of the oil. That's a start. Now, the next step is to formulate that a little more rigourously into a hypothesis, then devise a way to test it. By testing, I specifically exclude VOAs from multiple sources without error analysis, since those are nearly useless, unless you intend on using one significant figure for everything you do. I also would specifically exclude information obtained from a PDS or a MSDS, for exactly the same reasons. The former is not a recipe or a specification, but represents typical production, noted on every sheet. The latter isn't even that. If you don't have real data that can be reproduced by someone else (and as you well know, reproducing doesn't mean using the same data sheet or VOA, since that's the same thing as copying someone else's work in a lab), then you don't have anything. Also, as you well know, you need an error analysis to be sure that there really is some sort of relationship here, and not wishful thinking.

When that's all done, the relationship in question can be further honed mathematically. If needed, it can be passed off to a mathematical physicist for polishing.

I'm no tribologist. I admit that. I'm not even going to get into whether this property is useful or not. What we have here is no reasonable demonstration this property exists because you have zero data. To determine whether this property is useful or not, we first have to demonstrate that it exists, and that hasn't happened.

You're a physicist. Be honest. What would you do if a first year physics student handed this in for a lab?

You may be right here. You may be wrong here. With what we've got here, though, neither has been demonstrated. The biggest problem I see is that we're rushing to conclusions about this "actual property of the oil" without being sure if the word "actual" can apply. Given your academic background, you also note that negative results are just as important as positive results. You're also aware that no error analysis means no results. No data means no error analysis. We don't have a single data point here, not even one.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5074208 04/14/19 02:19 AM
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Shannow Offline
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
calibrate it for the M1 EP 0W-20 so that it would have the known HTFSV in the Exxon Mobil blending guide


Interesting given that the blend guide has variously been considered
* gospel
* meaningless advertising
* again gospel.

And is seriously not a recipe book.

And interesting that you chose to "calibrate" your new work of M1 EP against the blend guide,

Code
Oil        M1 0W20 EP   Blend Guide 0W20    Variance (%)
KV40       44.9                     47.2                         5%        
KV100       8.6                       8.6                            0%  (could be hidden in rounding on the data sheets
HTHS        2.7                       2.8




If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5074212 04/14/19 02:36 AM
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Just a question, what is the impact of fuel and soot dilution on this measurement, with gdi engine I would think no oil remain pristine for long time(more than 2k) unlike engine with old port fuel injection? I think in honda 1.5T case, the FM/AW play more crucial role than the base oil itself?

Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: kr_bitog] #5074217 04/14/19 03:09 AM
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I think that's a question far too premature. You're asking about the impact of two variables on a measurement that actually hasn't been made.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5074219 04/14/19 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
calibrate it for the M1 EP 0W-20 so that it would have the known HTFSV in the Exxon Mobil blending guide


Interesting given that the blend guide has variously been considered
* gospel
* meaningless advertising
* again gospel.

And is seriously not a recipe book.

And interesting that you chose to "calibrate" your new work of M1 EP against the blend guide,

Code
Oil        M1 0W20 EP   Blend Guide 0W20    Variance (%)
KV40       44.9                     47.2                            5%        
KV100       8.6                       8.6                            0%  (could be hidden in rounding on the data sheets
HTHS        2.7                       2.8                            7%
% PAO      60-70%              83.1                            30+% 


So not sure how the calibration was deemed successful/not successful, as while the two share "Mobil" and "0W-20"...but we'll charge on.

Also not sure how you obtained the 2.78% VM treat rate, but that's about 7% different from the blend guide as well...

Code
Oil                                     M1 0W20 EP   Blend Guide 0W20 
HTFSV  via your method      1.84       
Base oil HTHS                                              1.88


So the numbers were mashed until this calibration point...what from there ?



Code
Oil                                     M1 0W30 AFE  Blend Guide 0W30 
HTFSV  via your method      1.47      
Base oil HTHS                                              1.79


RE this part of the important notes....

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Important notes:
[*]Some popular oils such as M1 HM 5W-30 and M1 EP HM 5W-30 did very poorly due to their mega dose of VII.
[


In order to get a VI of "only" 172, what did they then do to neuter all that VI chemical ?

If they can build a 0W20 with a VI of 172, with only 2.8% treat rate, how come the 5W30 only has 172 with 2.5 TIMES the viscosity index improver per your calcs ?

The blend guide shows similar treat rates for the 5W30 and the 0W20...with significantly thicker basestocks for the 5W30....which makes intuitive sense.

Your new technique shows this oil as having
Code
Oil                                         Blend Guide 5W30         M1 5W30       M1AP    M1 HM
Base oil HTHS                                   2.27                                                                            plus similar VII treat rate to the 0W20 "calibration"
HTFSV  via your method                                               1.51               1.37         1.3            


Further, the densities of the various 5W30s are well above the densities of either the 0W20 or 0W30, which would further indicate that the 5W30s are made with thicker base-stocks than either of those two.

So on the whole, the results don't jive...


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5074224 04/14/19 03:40 AM
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RE the claim that VII doesn't play a part at very high shear rates....a simple look at the blend guide will allay that fallacy.

In the case of the
* 0W20, the stated HTHS is 50% higher than the Base Oil HTHS
* 0W30, the stated HTHS is 70% higher than the Base Oil HTHS
* 5w30, the stated HTHS is 40% higher than the Base Oil HTHS.

So clearly the VII additives are contributing to apparent viscosity.

That's at the 10^6 shear rate for HTHS...the second Newtonian Plateau extends three orders of magnitude beyond that shear rate.


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
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