Is CR-V AWD really that bad?

[Garak]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster
I hate pickups in winter. The problem is not snow, which they do pretty well in, it's ice. Given as a pickup has a big, heavy engine in the front but nothing in the back, the weight distribution is all messed up, which causes the tail to get very loose on ice. That combined with the high center of gravity, steep hills and generally poor handling means things can go very bad, very quick. Even snow tires won't entirely fix the problem with a pickup. There will always be a massive traction difference between front and rear, and when they do go, they tend to do so quickly and violently.

My solution has been to keep significant weight in the back of the F-150 over the winter. That has eliminated these problems. I have not splurged on winter tires for it, but in all the winter driving I did with it, I never wound up facing the wrong way. The Lightning actually was surprisingly good on ice, as little as I took it on ice. It being short was what saved it.

I remember a few years ago, a buddy and I were both climbing the same hill in a provincial park in the winter. He had his RWD truck, and I had my RWD F-150. Our tires had similar tread. He couldn't get up the hill, and I went up easily. He couldn't understand it until I showed him the 300+ lbs of tractor wheel weights I had in the back.

 

[littlehulkster]

Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
I hate pickups in winter. The problem is not snow, which they do pretty well in, it's ice. Given as a pickup has a big, heavy engine in the front but nothing in the back, the weight distribution is all messed up, which causes the tail to get very loose on ice. That combined with the high center of gravity, steep hills and generally poor handling means things can go very bad, very quick. Even snow tires won't entirely fix the problem with a pickup. There will always be a massive traction difference between front and rear, and when they do go, they tend to do so quickly and violently.

My solution has been to keep significant weight in the back of the F-150 over the winter. That has eliminated these problems. I have not splurged on winter tires for it, but in all the winter driving I did with it, I never wound up facing the wrong way. The Lightning actually was surprisingly good on ice, as little as I took it on ice. It being short was what saved it.

I remember a few years ago, a buddy and I were both climbing the same hill in a provincial park in the winter. He had his RWD truck, and I had my RWD F-150. Our tires had similar tread. He couldn't get up the hill, and I went up easily. He couldn't understand it until I showed him the 300+ lbs of tractor wheel weights I had in the back.


It can be done, I'm sure, but the potential for spinning out or fishtailing is always going to be a lot higher. Your solution seems pretty good, but up here in the mountains a RWD truck just wouldn't cut it, even with snow tires. In the flatlands, you can manage.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by edyvw
Forester with snow tires will put to shame any Honda or Toyota with AWD and snow tires.
Forester with all season tire does not stand a chance against those cars with snow tires, and some FWD cars with snow tires.

Problem with Subaru is not car, it is owners who think they bought ultimate snow machine (that is how it is advertised) and neglect tires. They are by far most common in the ditch here in CO once snow hits.

Well, yeah.

I remember a coworker who insisted that his Audi A4 Quattro on all-seasons was all that was needed in snow without any adjustment to driving style. As someone who has slid out in such conditions, yeah I know that was BS when the effect of tires on braking/steering are considered.

That being said, I've heard some claims that the manual transmission AWD systems with purely mechanical 50/50 distribution react better to poor traction conditions than electronic systems. And there's a huge criticism of the CR-V AWD system that's generally a 90/10 until it electronically kicks in, and may kick in slowly.

I've talked to enough people that apparently large SUVs with 4WD labels are the ones that end up in ditches more than other vehicles.


IMO, it's not SUVs, it's pickups.

I hate pickups in winter. The problem is not snow, which they do pretty well in, it's ice. Given as a pickup has a big, heavy engine in the front but nothing in the back, the weight distribution is all messed up, which causes the tail to get very loose on ice. That combined with the high center of gravity, steep hills and generally poor handling means things can go very bad, very quick. Even snow tires won't entirely fix the problem with a pickup. There will always be a massive traction difference between front and rear, and when they do go, they tend to do so quickly and violently.

It doesn't help that drivers of big brodozers all think they're invincible and way overdrive the conditions, either. Just this winter I saw a guy in a jacked up Chevy, complete with massive skyjacker decals, lose the rear going around a corner and slam into a light pole, all while I went smoothly by in my little Mazda. I'm a big enough man to admit I laughed at him.

It is both, full size SUV' s and pick ups.
Here tourists rent a big SUV at Denver or Colorado Springs airport and think 6,000lbs is what they need to tackle snow. Then they realize too late that mountains involve also going downhill not only uphill.

 

[littlehulkster]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by edyvw
Forester with snow tires will put to shame any Honda or Toyota with AWD and snow tires.
Forester with all season tire does not stand a chance against those cars with snow tires, and some FWD cars with snow tires.

Problem with Subaru is not car, it is owners who think they bought ultimate snow machine (that is how it is advertised) and neglect tires. They are by far most common in the ditch here in CO once snow hits.

Well, yeah.

I remember a coworker who insisted that his Audi A4 Quattro on all-seasons was all that was needed in snow without any adjustment to driving style. As someone who has slid out in such conditions, yeah I know that was BS when the effect of tires on braking/steering are considered.

That being said, I've heard some claims that the manual transmission AWD systems with purely mechanical 50/50 distribution react better to poor traction conditions than electronic systems. And there's a huge criticism of the CR-V AWD system that's generally a 90/10 until it electronically kicks in, and may kick in slowly.

I've talked to enough people that apparently large SUVs with 4WD labels are the ones that end up in ditches more than other vehicles.


IMO, it's not SUVs, it's pickups.

I hate pickups in winter. The problem is not snow, which they do pretty well in, it's ice. Given as a pickup has a big, heavy engine in the front but nothing in the back, the weight distribution is all messed up, which causes the tail to get very loose on ice. That combined with the high center of gravity, steep hills and generally poor handling means things can go very bad, very quick. Even snow tires won't entirely fix the problem with a pickup. There will always be a massive traction difference between front and rear, and when they do go, they tend to do so quickly and violently.

It doesn't help that drivers of big brodozers all think they're invincible and way overdrive the conditions, either. Just this winter I saw a guy in a jacked up Chevy, complete with massive skyjacker decals, lose the rear going around a corner and slam into a light pole, all while I went smoothly by in my little Mazda. I'm a big enough man to admit I laughed at him.

It is both, full size SUV' s and pick ups.
Here tourists rent a big SUV at Denver or Colorado Springs airport and think 6,000lbs is what they need to tackle snow. Then they realize too late that mountains involve also going downhill not only uphill.


Hence the need for snow tires. Even the most sophisticated AWD system does nothing at all to help you stop. That said, I find trucks even worse for that sort of thing because the tail wants to come loose due to the massive weight difference. SUVs are a little more balanced.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Hence the need for snow tires. Even the most sophisticated AWD system does nothing at all to help you stop. That said, I find trucks even worse for that sort of thing because the tail wants to come loose due to the massive weight difference. SUVs are a little more balanced.

Honestly probably the best thing for those conditions are chains/cables. But every state seems to have its own rules on when they can be used. Around here I believe it's only for designated chain conditions and they have to come off at the end of a chain-required area.

I haven't tried driving with them, but I'm pretty sure that there's a difference between ladder-style radial chains (that lose contact with the chain) and diagonal or other styles where there's always contact with the chain.

This guy is trying out chains in Yosemite Valley. He stops on the side and then tries to accelerate back onto the road. It still slips, but eventually digs in every time the chain contacts the road.

 

[meep]

didn't watch the video. x-wife's 97 CRV had the dual pump AWD system and it was quite effective in snow. The car rarely spun out in the rain but if you tried to do it, the rear would kick in and move the vehicle off the line smartly. In that car at least, it was pretty aggressive, as you could 'bump' the system in tight parking lot maneuvers, something most folks find as a nuisance, but is a characteristic of an aggressive AWD. I'm not sure of it's maximum torque capability, but the SH-AWD is surprisingly limited (~145 ft/lbs on each axle) though still effective for dealing with snow, as experienced in a gen 1 MDX. Both were fine on slick roads.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Hence the need for snow tires. Even the most sophisticated AWD system does nothing at all to help you stop. That said, I find trucks even worse for that sort of thing because the tail wants to come loose due to the massive weight difference. SUVs are a little more balanced.

Honestly probably the best thing for those conditions are chains/cables. But every state seems to have its own rules on when they can be used. Around here I believe it's only for designated chain conditions and they have to come off at the end of a chain-required area.

I haven't tried driving with them, but I'm pretty sure that there's a difference between ladder-style radial chains (that lose contact with the chain) and diagonal or other styles where there's always contact with the chain.

This guy is trying out chains in Yosemite Valley. He stops on the side and then tries to accelerate back onto the road. It still slips, but eventually digs in every time the chain contacts the road.


When you have to tackle one portion of the road, chains make sense. When snow can accumulate in front of your house pretty much 10 onths out of 12, they do not make ANY sense.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Hence the need for snow tires. Even the most sophisticated AWD system does nothing at all to help you stop. That said, I find trucks even worse for that sort of thing because the tail wants to come loose due to the massive weight difference. SUVs are a little more balanced.

Honestly probably the best thing for those conditions are chains/cables. But every state seems to have its own rules on when they can be used. Around here I believe it's only for designated chain conditions and they have to come off at the end of a chain-required area.

I haven't tried driving with them, but I'm pretty sure that there's a difference between ladder-style radial chains (that lose contact with the chain) and diagonal or other styles where there's always contact with the chain.

This guy is trying out chains in Yosemite Valley. He stops on the side and then tries to accelerate back onto the road. It still slips, but eventually digs in every time the chain contacts the road.



Yosemite may have had an R1 chain control, but that's many for people that drive with summer tires, as Sacramento's definition of a winter tire is a M+S with sufficient tread depth.

A car/truck/SUV with 3PMS tires can easily handle those conditions.

If the road was packed snow and going down a steep hill, then chains will make more sense.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
As shown in this roller test, flat ground, the CR-Vs AWD is pretty much useless. It requires way too much wheel spin and wheel speed to engage. In real world conditions the best traction available is during the first attempt, before wheels start to spin excessively. Once the wheels spin excessively, they smooth out the surface and kick out pebbles, stones, twigs etc. that aid traction, and it becomes much more difficult to get out of a situation after that happens.
The CX-5 does notably better, but not that great either.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCv-1-zhGGw

For comparison, here is the Tiguan vs Subaru Forrester. These two handle the situation how it should be handled for the most part.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1d9wMLo-Tg


You can skew these tests any way you want to. I am on my 2nd CX5, now, and it does great in snow and on ice, as well as any vehicle. My former vehicle was a 2010 Jeep Grand Cherokee AWD/4WD (52/48 all-time split, with ELSD's front/rear, ability to sent 0-100% of torque or any combo thereof to the 4 tires independently), and it did no better in ice/snow than my CX5s.

This is sponsored by Mazda, but 3rd party tested:

 

[PimTac]

I agree with Ws6, tests can be skewed. I prefer real world conditions like the video he linked or this one.

https://youtu.be/WEhkY2Sofmc

 

[klt1986]

Originally Posted by meep
didn't watch the video. x-wife's 97 CRV had the dual pump AWD system and it was quite effective in snow. The car rarely spun out in the rain but if you tried to do it, the rear would kick in and move the vehicle off the line smartly. In that car at least, it was pretty aggressive, as you could 'bump' the system in tight parking lot maneuvers, something most folks find as a nuisance, but is a characteristic of an aggressive AWD. I'm not sure of it's maximum torque capability, but the SH-AWD is surprisingly limited (~145 ft/lbs on each axle) though still effective for dealing with snow, as experienced in a gen 1 MDX. Both were fine on slick roads.



That has been my experience with our 2008 CR-V. Never had any issues getting around in the snow and ice.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by PimTac
I agree with Ws6, tests can be skewed. I prefer real world conditions like the video he linked or this one.

https://youtu.be/WEhkY2Sofmc



I can vouch for the suspension stuff he's talking about. I had a 2018 Grand Touring w/Tech or whatever as a loaner for 3 days prior to picking up my 2019 GT-R, and the difference in how they drove,regardless of the 60hp and 120# torque difference in power, was subtle but massive at the same time. This GT-R truly punches far above its price, based on the CUV's and other vehicles I have driven/been in/etc. It easily is in the same class as my neighbor's couple year old AMG 43 GLC in every aspect aside from power, and adhesion at the limits and likely brakes, although he didn't really demonstrate that aspect when I rode in his car. Everything else, it's a toss up or in favor of the GT-R. Sound insulation. Body rigidity. Handling of irregular pavement. Interior appearance and quality. Features. Literally the only way the AMG was superior was the engine, that lovely DCT, and the wider tires. I won't even say the suspension was better, but the tires were far wider, and it did ride a TINY BIT stiffer, but it also didn't do nearly as good a job as the GT-R's suspension in some key aspects such as composure over irregularities, etc. I'd go up against that AMG on a course where power wasn't a factor if the CX5 ride height and tires were altered to match it.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by KrisZ
As shown in this roller test, flat ground, the CR-Vs AWD is pretty much useless. It requires way too much wheel spin and wheel speed to engage. In real world conditions the best traction available is during the first attempt, before wheels start to spin excessively. Once the wheels spin excessively, they smooth out the surface and kick out pebbles, stones, twigs etc. that aid traction, and it becomes much more difficult to get out of a situation after that happens.
The CX-5 does notably better, but not that great either.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCv-1-zhGGw

For comparison, here is the Tiguan vs Subaru Forrester. These two handle the situation how it should be handled for the most part.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1d9wMLo-Tg


You can skew these tests any way you want to. I am on my 2nd CX5, now, and it does great in snow and on ice, as well as any vehicle. My former vehicle was a 2010 Jeep Grand Cherokee AWD/4WD (52/48 all-time split, with ELSD's front/rear, ability to sent 0-100% of torque or any combo thereof to the 4 tires independently), and it did no better in ice/snow than my CX5s.

This is sponsored by Mazda, but 3rd party tested:





TFL tests MUST be observed with great attention because very often (more often than not) it is insult to intelligence.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by PimTac
I agree with Ws6, tests can be skewed. I prefer real world conditions like the video he linked or this one.

https://youtu.be/WEhkY2Sofmc



I can vouch for the suspension stuff he's talking about. I had a 2018 Grand Touring w/Tech or whatever as a loaner for 3 days prior to picking up my 2019 GT-R, and the difference in how they drove,regardless of the 60hp and 120# torque difference in power, was subtle but massive at the same time. This GT-R truly punches far above its price, based on the CUV's and other vehicles I have driven/been in/etc. It easily is in the same class as my neighbor's couple year old AMG 43 GLC in every aspect aside from power, and adhesion at the limits and likely brakes, although he didn't really demonstrate that aspect when I rode in his car. Everything else, it's a toss up or in favor of the GT-R. Sound insulation. Body rigidity. Handling of irregular pavement. Interior appearance and quality. Features. Literally the only way the AMG was superior was the engine, that lovely DCT, and the wider tires. I won't even say the suspension was better, but the tires were far wider, and it did ride a TINY BIT stiffer, but it also didn't do nearly as good a job as the GT-R's suspension in some key aspects such as composure over irregularities, etc. I'd go up against that AMG on a course where power wasn't a factor if the CX5 ride height and tires were altered to match it.





This is a good point because for the vast majority of time most drivers are going to be driving in good conditions. The way awd can help in non- ice and snow situations can be effective. Going downhill on a rainy day and negotiating a curve for example.

So much of this is seamless and invisible to the driver. In my experience with our ‘17 CX5 GT, the awd and GVC system made me realize two things. One, the vehicle drives like its on rails, and two, it is much less tiring to drive long distances. The GVC is a factor as it helps to smooth out turns with less micro corrections of the steering.

 

[Brigadier]

Well, I must have been dreaming when my fake AWD Santa Fe drove right around stuck Jeeps and Subarus going up hills this last winter. And going down the other side of the hill, on ice, the ABS never kicked in. Especially since i didn't have dedicated snow tires, just the TrueContact Tours....yep, must've been a dream.

BTW, I never could tell if I was in FWD or AWD. The transitions were seemless.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Brigadier
Well, I must have been dreaming when my fake AWD Santa Fe drove right around stuck Jeeps and Subarus going up hills this last winter. And going down the other side of the hill, on ice, the ABS never kicked in. Especially since i didn't have dedicated snow tires, just the TrueContact Tours....yep, must've been a dream.

BTW, I never could tell if I was in FWD or AWD. The transitions were seemless.

It's all about tires.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Well, I must have been dreaming when my fake AWD Santa Fe drove right around stuck Jeeps and Subarus going up hills this last winter. And going down the other side of the hill, on ice, the ABS never kicked in. Especially since i didn't have dedicated snow tires, just the TrueContact Tours....yep, must've been a dream.

BTW, I never could tell if I was in FWD or AWD. The transitions were seemless.

It's all about tires.

Tires matter a ton, but even using mediocre tires, AWD makes the magic happen while FWD/RWD will leave you stranded in many circumstances. No, it won't help you turn or stop, but it will help you out of the drive way.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Well, I must have been dreaming when my fake AWD Santa Fe drove right around stuck Jeeps and Subarus going up hills this last winter. And going down the other side of the hill, on ice, the ABS never kicked in. Especially since i didn't have dedicated snow tires, just the TrueContact Tours....yep, must've been a dream.

BTW, I never could tell if I was in FWD or AWD. The transitions were seemless.

It's all about tires.

Tires matter a ton, but even using mediocre tires, AWD makes the magic happen while FWD/RWD will leave you stranded in many circumstances. No, it won't help you turn or stop, but it will help you out of the drive way.


If you think the TrueContact Tour is a mediocre tire, you need to do some research. And reread my post - climbing up and down hills covered in Seattle area snow/ice. A little more than just getting out of the driveway.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Well, I must have been dreaming when my fake AWD Santa Fe drove right around stuck Jeeps and Subarus going up hills this last winter. And going down the other side of the hill, on ice, the ABS never kicked in. Especially since i didn't have dedicated snow tires, just the TrueContact Tours....yep, must've been a dream.

BTW, I never could tell if I was in FWD or AWD. The transitions were seemless.

It's all about tires.


But, but, but, they weren't dedicated snow tires and I wasn't driving a VW or Audi, so I must be lying, right? I was driving a cheap, low end Korean SUV with mediocre all season tires.....how could this happen?

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Well, I must have been dreaming when my fake AWD Santa Fe drove right around stuck Jeeps and Subarus going up hills this last winter. And going down the other side of the hill, on ice, the ABS never kicked in. Especially since i didn't have dedicated snow tires, just the TrueContact Tours....yep, must've been a dream.

BTW, I never could tell if I was in FWD or AWD. The transitions were seemless.

It's all about tires.


Hey, wait, all three CUVs in that video had Blizzaks.......so, you were saying?