Slanderous Fram Orange Can Review

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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

I've never seen any article showing measured efficiency data proving that oil filters get more efficient with loading. I'd like to see that article.



There was one once... years ago

I couldn't find it now, but I read a Cummins/Fleetguard article that explained how as filters get loaded, flow goes down but efficiency (trapping smaller particles) increases.
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by ekpolk
Now, credit where credit is due. Back when I decided "never Fram" for myself, they didn't have the gold can premium filter out. I can't say why they introduced this line, of course, but I have to think public criticism had something to do with it. It's to their great credit that they listened to customers and potential customers. Now, I actually intend to try one of these Gold filters in the future. So, while I was (am) really turned off by the Orange Can design, I readily acknowledge that the Gold Can looks like a great filter. My hat's off to Fram for introducing it.


It's called the Ultra, which is the "XG" line of Fram oil filters.



Really, really good post here by ekpolk....

Fram hit a proverbial homerun with their Ultra filter. Great build quality, very high efficiency, and it put to bed any other negative connotations that people would have thought about their previous filters.

I do think though Fram made improvements to the orange cans... More media in them, better construction, plus a silicone ADBV has helped those filters a fair amount too.
 
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Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
I've never seen any article showing measured efficiency data proving that oil filters get more efficient with loading. I'd like to see that article.

There was one once... years ago

I couldn't find it now, but I read a Cummins/Fleetguard article that explained how as filters get loaded, flow goes down but efficiency (trapping smaller particles) increases.


Some filters may increase efficiency to some small degree, and I'd suspect it would be the higher efficiency filters that do because they would have to hold captured particles from "delta-p slough off" much better than less efficient filters. The way ISO 4548-12 efficiency is calculated points to that being the case.

I'm sure you've seen the Purolator/Hummel+Mann graph I've posted many times showing efficiency decreasing as the delta-p increases. I'd post it now, but I'm posting from my phone, and it's not stored on my phone.
 
Originally Posted by ekpolk
... What cemented it for me, though, is that I was able to easily crush the Fram paper end cap element in my bare hand. It takes about the same effort as crushing an empty soda can, maybe a bit more. ... You simply can't do that with a metal end cap filter. In fairness, obviously, hand crushing doesn't really approximate the stresses upon the filter element in its intended use. ...
In effect, you seem to be admitting that that demonstration was irrelevant. If you had thrown it in a fire, the fiber end caps would've failed by burning, whereas steel ones wouldn't---which is equally irrelevant to the intended use.
 
Originally Posted by CR94
. . . In effect, you seem to be admitting that that demonstration was irrelevant. If you had thrown it in a fire, the fiber end caps would've failed by burning, whereas steel ones wouldn't---which is equally irrelevant to the intended use.
Yes and no. I was really driving home the point as to relative quality. This ground has been plowed many times before. On one hand, plainly, a large number of customers are using Orange Cans without apparent problems -- acknowledged. On the other, I just don't see the reason to choose one when I can get one that is of so much better quality for very nearly, sometimes exactly, the same price. And don't forget, we really don't know the point at which the Orange Can's lightweight construction actually approaches failure.

As for the fire comparison, I disagree. Filters are actually exposed to pressure differentials, from the outside in no less, during intended use. The "hand crush" applied forces in the same direction, albeit in a non-uniform manner. By contrast, unless your car is deeply engulfed in flames
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, the filter element will never fail by burning. So absolutely not "equally irrelevant" to intended use.
 
It has taken me a while on the end caps … and the resin core … but have been cutting the ACD PF63E's and they seem well made … even like the idea of no mass produced stamped metal on the clean side



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Originally Posted by Pinoak
Originally Posted by MONKEYMAN
He seems to be full of pudding.
grin.gif

hmm love me so tapioca
Never much cared for tapioca. Around here folks seem to cotton to banana puddin.
 
Originally Posted by Sayjac
Never much cared for tapioca. Around here folks seem to cotton to banana puddin.

Hey, what if you put the tapioca beads in banana pudding??
I like both of them a lot...
 
Originally Posted by ekpolk
Originally Posted by Matagonka
So many people on the forums still bashing Fram. It's the ignorant ones who never bothered to open a single filter.

I've cut open an OCOD. I won't use them. It's not so much the quality in an absolute sense, it the relative quality. I can get a much more robust filter, particularly with metal end caps, for very nearly the same price. With that in mind, I just don't feel any motivation at all to try an Orange can on my car, no matter how well others report it has performed for them.

What cemented it for me, though, is that I was able to easily crush the Fram paper end cap element in my bare hand. It takes about the same effort as crushing an empty soda can, maybe a bit more. At least it did when I cut up that OCOD (2005-ish, I posted it here, I'm pretty sure). You simply can't do that with a metal end cap filter. In fairness, obviously, hand crushing doesn't really approximate the stresses upon the filter element in its intended use. Still, it's pretty shocking to feel it collapse so easily.

Now, credit where credit is due. Back when I decided "never Fram" for myself, they didn't have the gold can premium filter out. I can't say why they introduced this line, of course, but I have to think public criticism had something to do with it. It's to their great credit that they listened to customers and potential customers. Now, I actually intend to try one of these Gold filters in the future. So, while I was (am) really turned off by the Orange Can design, I readily acknowledge that the Gold Can looks like a great filter. My hat's off to Fram for introducing it.



Show me DATA from a real lab located anywhere that says a non-metal end disc is better or worse than a metal end cap. What test would you run to prove it?

You don't have any data. And there is no such test.

It's all perception. Nothing more.

The strength of the element lies within the column strength of the element (core & pleated media) -- not what kind of cover is on the end.

The job of an element's end covering (metal, plastic, paper-board, other) is to prevent dirty oil from getting to the clean / filtered oil side -and- to serve as an interface for the adjacent components. That's it.

Both materials have to survive the working environment. From dozens of cut-open filter posts, you can see all types are intact after 3-10k miles.

The type of material used as an end covering is usually DIRECTLY related to the type of element it has to be bonded, the price point / margin, and how much $$$$ in capital the manufacturer has invested into assembly automation for that type of cover. Puro, Wix, Fram, Champion...they all have their methods.

You should be worrying about how well the filter removes "debris" from your oil at the lowest restriction and for the longest period of time while surviving your vehicles working conditions, all while never ever leaking.
 
Originally Posted by 4WD
It has taken me a while on the end caps … and the resin core … but have been cutting the ACD PF63E's and they seem well made … even like the idea of no mass produced stamped metal on the clean side



Are you worried about metal on the clean / filtered side?

The tapping process is probably the dirtiest process of them all. And literally every filter has a threaded plate on the end.

They all use stamped / drawn outer cans, stamped plates and stamped gasket retainer plates.

Some use plastic and others use metal cores. The same people who will complain about a paper end disc (touting how tough steel is) will also love a plastic core. haha

Personally, I don't want broken bits of plastic in my engine, so i prefer the metal ones with thick metal and lots of holes.

But come on....we're talking about oil filters. Bigger fish in the sea to roast.
 
There was a thread comparing Toughguard vs. Ultra filters and a poster Leaky Seals had a noise issue with the Ultra during startup on his truck. Both have the same ADBV made of silicone. The ADBV should seal well on a metal end filter media. Did the filter drain on the cardboard end with the ADBV? It would not matter with a dome down filter but on a side mount?
 
Originally Posted by DudeNiceRide
. . .
Show me DATA from a real lab located anywhere that says a non-metal end disc is better or worse than a metal end cap. What test would you run to prove it?

You don't have any data. And there is no such test.

It's all perception. Nothing more.

...And then you jump in with a bunch of "data free" assertions of your own, all while totally missing my point.

Originally Posted by DudeNiceRide
The strength of the element lies within the column strength of the element (core & pleated media) -- not what kind of cover is on the end.
Hmmm, no data offered to support this opinion. My data: a Fram paper end cap element crushes, and so does its metal center tube, in my bare hand. I could inflict no such damage at all to the comparable M1 filter. Obviously, the collapse of a Fram paper end cap filter in actual service is an extremely rare event. I simply choose to use filters of more robust construction. This is my opinion. If you disagree, by all means, use whatever you prefer.

Originally Posted by DudeNiceRide
The job of an element's end covering (metal, plastic, paper-board, other) is to prevent dirty oil from getting to the clean / filtered oil side -and- to serve as an interface for the adjacent components. That's it.
EDIT: part of that function is to keep the filtration element in the proper place.END EDIT. As I've stated repeatedly here, like literally for fifteen years now, the paper ends will likely do just fine for the vast majority of users. I choose to spend my money on ones that have an obviously more robust design. If you choose to go the other way, by all means, please do so, it's your choice. Also, as I clearly indicated, I'm not "anti-Fram". I don't care for the orange can design, but as I said earlier, I credit them for offering the gold can XP line of filters -- with metal end caps. . . By the way, if the paper design you favor is perfectly sufficient, why would Fram itself have elected to create and market the metal end cap XP line???

Originally Posted by DudeNiceRide
Both materials have to survive the working environment. From dozens of cut-open filter posts, you can see all types are intact after 3-10k miles.
Just as I've said about ten zillion times already here on BITOG. But we've also seen rare, thank goodness, examples of oil filter failures. I believe the metal end cap designs to be more resistant to catastrophic failure. Notice the word I used: believe. That's my opinion, always stated as such. Actually, it's a good thing there isn't "more data" on this issue, if you catch my meaning. I choose to use filters I feel are more resistant to physical collapse.

Originally Posted by DudeNiceRide
The type of material used as an end covering is usually DIRECTLY related to the type of element it has to be bonded, the price point / margin, and how much $$$$ in capital the manufacturer has invested into assembly automation for that type of cover. Puro, Wix, Fram, Champion...they all have their methods.
Another set of factual assertions suffering from the same flaw you charge against my opinions -- no supporting data supplied.

Originally Posted by DudeNiceRide
You should be worrying about how well the filter removes "debris" from your oil at the lowest restriction and for the longest period of time while surviving your vehicles working conditions, all while never ever leaking.
I've been changing oil filters since 1977. I concern myself (I don't ever "worry" about "issues" like this...) with all aspects of a filter's performance. Of course filtration and leakage are important. But in the unlikely event the filter suffers a structural failure, filtration quality will become suddenly and conclusively moot. Which filters can best resist internal structural failure?
 
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Originally Posted by ekpolk
I don't care for the orange can design, but as I said earlier, I credit them for offering the gold can XP line of filters -- with metal end caps. . . By the way, if the paper design you favor is perfectly sufficient, why would Fram itself have elected to create and market the metal end cap XP line???


XP is the WIX ... XG is the Fram Ultra (gold can).

It's been pointed out many times that the XG uses metal end caps so the 2 layers of media plus the metal wire backing can all be potted securely in metal end caps.

Single layer, non-wire backed media in the EG and TG lines don't need metal end caps to bond the pleats to the end caps.
 
Shoot -- I guess I worked some negative auto-suggestive stuff against myself. XG! Got it now (I hope)! XG!!! Going to WM tonight or tomorrow -- maybe I should buy one just to remind myself (and compulsively boost my stash...). Seriously, thanks for the reminder.
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EDIT: I will now go to the Test forum and type XG one-hundred times. . .
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Yes … the Synthetic media needs mesh backing for structural integrity
(Wix XP, Fram XG, Royal Purple, Amsoil, etc) …

Cut two more hated filters today … no issues …



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Originally Posted by ekpolk
Shoot -- I guess I worked some negative auto-suggestive stuff against myself. XG! Got it now (I hope)! XG!!! Going to WM tonight or tomorrow -- maybe I should buy one just to remind myself (and compulsively boost my stash...). Seriously, thanks for the reminder.
grin2.gif
cool.gif


EDIT: I will now go to the Test forum and type XG one-hundred times. . .
wink.gif



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... yeah, might be a good idea to go buy one and put it on your nightstand so you can remind yourself each night that it's an "XG" or "Ultra".
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Why does Fram choose to paint their high end racing filters, the HP's - gasp, ORANGE ?!

Unless the OCOD hate is not nearly as wide spread as one would guess from sites like this ...
 
This is super enjoyable to read these comments. Mr. Dun Right is a YouTube troll using idiots and alarming titles to make $$$$ from the click bait fools. Honestly there is no hope for folks who judge any kind of auto parts from watching idiots like him on Youtube. I couldn't say that while I worked for FRAM but I can now. All of his videos are monetized and he trolls for clicks throughout them. In his eval of Duramax filters he still slams the FRAM the worst and its a filter they buy from Baldwin!
 
There's an even better one out there by some heavy-duty equipment mech. He takes a chipped grinding wheel to the filters with his wife and small children nearby, then proceeds to compare the OCOD to premium Napa/Wix filters. Plenty of derptastic followers lapping that garbage up.
 
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