AeroShell W100 SAE50 in Motorcycles?

[CCI]

Any thoughts on how AeroShell W100 (SAE 50) or their W120 would compare to monograde motorcycle oils of the same viscosity?

 

[Ken42]

Aircraft piston oils use ashless dispersants which means no zddp, calcium or any of the other goodies.
Use at your own risk.
Aircraft piston engines usually use leaded gas so the oil is changed often. Who knows how long it would last. Probably won't hurt your Harley
but why? At least your plugs won't foul...…
Lots of posts on here about using aircraft oils in a car.

 

[Robster]

I wouldn't recommend running that in a bike or car. Like Ken42 says, it lacks additives that your motorcycle would benefit from. In aircraft piston engines, the oil is changed every 50 hrs. of operation, whereas most people run their bikes twice that during a normal OCI. I recommend running a motorcycle-specific oil.

 

[alarmguy]

No, dont use AeroShell, its for piston aircraft and does not contain ANY of the recommended additives of 2 and 4 wheel vehicles or any land based combustion engine.

Whether or not it would do any harm is interesting but I am sure it would. I am sure the lubrication system of aircraft take into account the oil and its requirements.

It is interesting to note that aircraft oil does not contain the metallic antiwear additives of land based piston engines because of these metals building up on the pistons and rings accelerating wear in an aircraft engine.

I do find the subject interesting and would like to understand it more.

 

[wings&wheels]

I believe that metallic additives are not used in aircraft oils as typical piston aircraft recip engines consume a fair amount of oil and the resultant metallic deposits in the combustion chamber could lead to detonation. All of the other concerns are valid.

I have heard that AC oil is used in some very old/odd motorcycles whose bearings can be affected by modern oil additives, but that is a real corner case.

Someone once gave me a case of old AC oil (from a deceased relatives cellar) that I used for lawn equipment w/ no ill effects....but I would not use it in a modern car.

 

[Cujet]

From the Camguard Website: (about aircraft engine oils)

https://aslcamguard.com/antiwear-performance/


"Ashless additives such as the triaryl phosphate ester functional fluids including tricresyl phosphate (TCP), butylated triphenyl phosphate (BTPP), and isopropylated triphenyl phosphate have historically been utilized as load carrying, plasticizers and flame-retardant additives in many applications. They are utilized extensively in turbine engine oils. These additives have never demonstrated useful performance in automotive applications i.e. the camshafts quickly fail. AutomotSeverelyWornive gasoline and diesel engines depend on the use of zinc diakyldithiophosphate "ZINC" for antiwear protection."

 

[racin4ds]

Do piston aircraft engines not need antiwear additives? They may not be metallic in nature but I can assure you they are stout oils with good anti-wear additives of some type! A plane losing an engine due to lubrication failure is MUCH more significant than a car or truck losing an engine!


Keep in mind, piston aircraft engines and their oils are totally different from turbine oils! These two are not even in the same ball field!

Piston engined aircraft have cams, lifters and all the same components as a automobile engine, the main difference being the planes still allow some lead in the fuel which lubricates the valves better and helps with top end longevity.

 

[racin4ds]

Originally Posted by Cujet
From the Camguard Website: (about aircraft engine oils)

https://aslcamguard.com/antiwear-performance/


"Ashless additives such as the triaryl phosphate ester functional fluids including tricresyl phosphate (TCP), butylated triphenyl phosphate (BTPP), and isopropylated triphenyl phosphate have historically been utilized as load carrying, plasticizers and flame-retardant additives in many applications. They are utilized extensively in turbine engine oils. These additives have never demonstrated useful performance in automotive applications i.e. the camshafts quickly fail. AutomotSeverelyWornive gasoline and diesel engines depend on the use of zinc diakyldithiophosphate "ZINC" for antiwear protection."



We aren't talking turbine oils here Cujet.. totally different animal compared to a piston engine aircraft oil.

 

[Kamele0N]

I have heard that AC oils are "ashless" to prevent fouling of the sparkplugs...

If only that is the main reason...why are then modern "ashless" PCMOs not alowed? I.e.: ACEA Cx oils or vw504 /507 or BMW LL-04... MB 229.51...??? Those oils wich are ment for DPF equiped diesels...

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by racin4ds
Originally Posted by Cujet


....They are utilized extensively in turbine engine oils.



We aren't talking turbine oils here Cujet.. totally different animal compared to a piston engine aircraft oil.


I did not write the above, and It's too bad I can't go back and edit it.

The Camguard website and everything I posted is ABOUT PISTON AIRCRAFT ENGINE OILS. That little blurb should have been a clearly labeled as a note.

The Camguard company was simply noting that the additives in PISTON AIRCRAFT ENGINE OILS are also used in turbine engine oils.

 

[wings&wheels]

Originally Posted by Kamele0N
I have heard that AC oils are "ashless" to prevent fouling of the sparkplugs...

If only that is the main reason...why are then modern "ashless" PCMOs not alowed? I.e.: ACEA Cx oils or vw504 /507 or BMW LL-04... MB 229.51...??? Those oils wich are ment for DPF equiped diesels...


Not fouling, detonation from metallic deposits in the combustion chambers. 100LL itself leaves pretty significant plug deposits.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Cujet
From the Camguard Website: (about aircraft engine oils)

https://aslcamguard.com/antiwear-performance/


"Ashless additives such as the triaryl phosphate ester functional fluids including tricresyl phosphate (TCP), butylated triphenyl phosphate (BTPP), and isopropylated triphenyl phosphate have historically been utilized as load carrying, plasticizers and flame-retardant additives in many applications. They are utilized extensively in turbine engine oils. These additives have never demonstrated useful performance in automotive applications i.e. the camshafts quickly fail. AutomotSeverelyWornive gasoline and diesel engines depend on the use of zinc diakyldithiophosphate "ZINC" for antiwear protection."


Wrong engines ^^^ though, we are talking about piston aircraft engines, not turbine.
Piston aircraft engines are the same as our earth based engines, camshaft and all and do not use any additives such as moly, zinc ect.

I just saw your reply to someone else but the whole basis of your post still doesnt make sense as piston aircraft engines have camshafts and designed just like a automotive engine. Bottom line is Shell Aero 20w50 motor oil contains ZERO additives as we know them in our UOAs.
No moly, no zinc ...nothing that we test for .. 0 PPM across the board )

Which in a way goes back to, the BEST anti wear additive in a properly designed engine is, ready? OIL
All the other stuff tries to make up for bad lubrication design.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by alarmguy

Wrong engines ^^^ we are talking about piston aircraft engines, not turbine.

Piston aircraft engines are the same as our earth based engines, camshaft and all and do not use any additives such as moly, zinc ect.

I just saw your reply to someone else but the whole basis of your post still doesnt make sense as piston aircraft engines have camshafts and designed just like a automotive engine.


1) Right engines.
2) Piston aircraft engines are similar to car engines in many aspects, including the use of a conventional camshaft
3) Piston aircraft engine oil is different (with no ZDDP) , as the Camguard website states. The additives used are unfamiliar to most here.
4) Piston aircraft engines suffer camshaft failures at very high rates. Hence the product called "Camguard".

 

[kmrcstintn]

this answer is a sidebar tangent at best...if aircraft engine was the only thing around to use upon discovering a leak, loose drain bolt, or oil level was critically low would I use it; and then only til I get home or shop or place where I can obtain oil that is spec'd for my engine & do an oil change (with repair of leak if applicable); the 'oh [censored]' oil I keep with me on the scoot & moto is supertech 10w-30 lawnmower oil api sj in16 oz containers with foil seals under the cap (prevents spilling in tailbag, backpack, and cargo storage compartment)...not optimal for daily operations yet very handy if oil runs low; I used to rinse out 20 oz soda bottles & split a quart of 10w-40 yet ended up with spills after oil comes out when cap loosens (very messy); I might switch to straight 30wt supertech lawnmower oil (for warmer seasons) if walmart sells it in the sealed 16oz cannisters as in years past...

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by alarmguy

Wrong engines ^^^ we are talking about piston aircraft engines, not turbine.

Piston aircraft engines are the same as our earth based engines, camshaft and all and do not use any additives such as moly, zinc ect.

I just saw your reply to someone else but the whole basis of your post still doesnt make sense as piston aircraft engines have camshafts and designed just like a automotive engine.


1) Right engines.
2) Piston aircraft engines are similar to car engines in many aspects, including the use of a conventional camshaft
3) Piston aircraft engine oil is different (with no ZDDP) , as the Camguard website states. The additives used are unfamiliar to most here.
4) Piston aircraft engines suffer camshaft failures at very high rates. Hence the product called "Camguard".



"The additives used are unfamiliar to most here."
Exactly and why on BITOG people are stuck on oil additives that are 70 years old vs new ones that do not show in uoa's plus the refinement process much improved. Oil is the best antiwear agent in an engine, other antiwear agents are to make up for poor engine design.

As far as Camguard, hmmm ... an aftermarket additive, not exactly a reliable source of information.
Some piston aircraft do require aftermarket additives but not all by any means. Normally only because of a lubrication issue that was part of engine design.

 

[CCI]

Interesting and useful discussion, thanks to all who have replied.

The reason I ask is in the older literature (Panhead and early Shovelhead manual) HD specifies a high detergent low ash oil, so I wondered many years ago if maybe this meant aircraft oil. If you look at the design of the early Big Twins they are essentially a slice out of a radial air cooled aircraft engine.

On the advice of a local shop, I tried AeroShell for a while, this was at a time when it would be impossible to say with any certainty how it worked. I later tried Phillips aviation oil and I have never seen a cam wear out that fast, I can't attribute causality, always on the lookout for post hoc ergo propter hoc, but there was a while there where I was wearing out a lot of cams. Remember that these are fairly high lift cams that can have abrupt approach and departure ramps, some are fairly long duration, they use roller tappets, and the valve springs are nothing to write home about. So tappet bounce and tappet roller skid can happen.

Went to real motorcycle oil somewhere along the line with the corresponding improvement in durability and performance one might expect. That part is not speculative, I have built a lot of engines. The right oil makes a difference.

The reason for my question is I never did understand why I saw the results that I did with the aircraft oil, now thanks to this thread I think I do. There is a lot of speculation in the world of motorcyclists about oil, and given a sufficient lack of information almost anything could appear plausible.

After about a year of experimenting, the best I've found for the older Big Twins is a mixture of 20w-50 and SAE 60 RevTech (not synthetic), proportions varying with weather. Doesn't shear down with heat, easy to kick the bike in cooler weather, makes less noise during warm up, stays together over the course of a thousand miles at 75+ mph in 80 degree F or greater temps.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Cujet

4) Piston aircraft engines suffer camshaft failures at very high rates. Hence the product called "Camguard".




No, certain manufacturers have had cam issues, not all.
I do understand the purpose of the aftermarket product called "CAMGUARD" but lets not say every piston aircraft engine maker requires or even suggests it. Cam issues were bad design.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Originally Posted by Cujet

4) Piston aircraft engines suffer camshaft failures at very high rates. Hence the product called "Camguard".




No, certain manufacturers have had cam issues, not all.
I do understand the purpose of the aftermarket product called "CAMGUARD" but lets not say every piston aircraft engine maker requires or even suggests it. Cam issues were bad design.




Incorrect. Both major engine manufacturers experience camshaft failures at much higher rates than the automotive industry. Period.




From Aviation Consumer:

"Just as you thought it was finally safe to buy a cylinder, now comes a crisis over camshafts. Specifically, engine shops tell us they're seeing premature wear and failures due to spalling and many also report that cams that used to make it through one TBO run and into another are now too worn to reuse. This trend has actually been brewing for a number of years and no one seems able to say definitively if it's getting better or worse. Opinions bridge the divide. "Definitely worse, in my opinion," says Penn Yan Aero's Bill Middlebrook, who shipped us a couple of scrapped cams to prove the point, along with a couple of spalled lifters. "We had a brand new cam come apart in the test cell—it wiped one lobe," he added. This sort of thing used to be limited to Lycomings, whose cam is mounted higher in the engine core, away from oil misting from the crankcase and in line with blowby from the cylinders. But lately, shops tell us they're seeing more cam-related wear issues in Continental engines, too. TCM seems to have noticed this and in 2005, it issued SID 05-1, a service directive related to cam and tappet wear. And speaking of tappets, some in the industry think that's definitely the problem and a worn cam is the secondary result. "We think the problems definitely start in the lifters, predominantly," says Greg Merrill at Aircraft Specialties Services, a Tulsa house that regrinds and reconditions cams and tappets for many engine shops. His company also developed CamGuard, an anti-wear, anti-corrosion oil additive. "We do see the occasional cam with a bad lobe, but it's rare. It's almost always a problem with the tappets," Merrill adds. What exactly is going on here? Everyone has a theory, so take your pick. Some, like Allen Weiss at Opa Locka, Florida's Certified Engines believe that something changed in the fuel or the oil in the recent past, recent being perhaps in the last 10 years."

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by alarmguy
Originally Posted by Cujet

4) Piston aircraft engines suffer camshaft failures at very high rates. Hence the product called "Camguard".




No, certain manufacturers have had cam issues, not all.
I do understand the purpose of the aftermarket product called "CAMGUARD" but lets not say every piston aircraft engine maker requires or even suggests it. Cam issues were bad design.




Incorrect. Both major engine manufacturers experience camshaft failures at much higher rates than the automotive industry. Period.




From Aviation Consumer:

"Just as you thought it was finally safe to buy a cylinder, now comes a crisis over camshafts. Specifically, engine shops tell us they're seeing premature wear and failures due to spalling and many also report that cams that used to make it through one TBO run and into another are now too worn to reuse. This trend has actually been brewing for a number of years and no one seems able to say definitively if it's getting better or worse. Opinions bridge the divide. "Definitely worse, in my opinion," says Penn Yan Aero's Bill Middlebrook, who shipped us a couple of scrapped cams to prove the point, along with a couple of spalled lifters. "We had a brand new cam come apart in the test cell—it wiped one lobe," he added. This sort of thing used to be limited to Lycomings, whose cam is mounted higher in the engine core, away from oil misting from the crankcase and in line with blowby from the cylinders. But lately, shops tell us they're seeing more cam-related wear issues in Continental engines, too. TCM seems to have noticed this and in 2005, it issued SID 05-1, a service directive related to cam and tappet wear. And speaking of tappets, some in the industry think that's definitely the problem and a worn cam is the secondary result. "We think the problems definitely start in the lifters, predominantly," says Greg Merrill at Aircraft Specialties Services, a Tulsa house that regrinds and reconditions cams and tappets for many engine shops. His company also developed CamGuard, an anti-wear, anti-corrosion oil additive. "We do see the occasional cam with a bad lobe, but it's rare. It's almost always a problem with the tappets," Merrill adds. What exactly is going on here? Everyone has a theory, so take your pick. Some, like Allen Weiss at Opa Locka, Florida's Certified Engines believe that something changed in the fuel or the oil in the recent past, recent being perhaps in the last 10 years."


Huh? Where are your comments coming from?
Who is comparing camshaft in piston aircraft engines to automotive. I thought we were talking about AreoShell oil not having automotive antiwear additives = ZERO.
Your incorrectly promoting that piston aircraft engine makers have an issue because of this and you are COMPLETLY wrong.
You can cherry pick engines of any maker in the world for any mode of transportation and find one that is having an issue, such as camshaft problems and recommends a product to help solve the issue, such as CamGuard which is STILL free of zinc ect.

Your too jaded for me to comment further, but for the others, the AEROSHELL piston aircraft engine oil is a certified engine oil that major piston aircraft engines require AND DO NOT RECOMMEND ADDING ADDITIVES.

AS far as your reply, below is a cut and past from your post, of the CAMGUARD oil addiitive, did you even read it? Even they say the issue is with the lifters not the cams (but who cares) and AGAIN, go buy a piston aircraft, you will not see the manual calling for CAMGUARD additive, except if its a crappy engine design with issues, but think its been worked out on the new engines.

here I highlighted an area for you from your own darn post! *L*...
""We think the problems definitely start in the lifters, predominantly," says Greg Merrill at Aircraft Specialties Services, a Tulsa house that regrinds and reconditions cams and tappets for many engine shops. His company also developed CamGuard, an anti-wear, anti-corrosion oil additive. "We do see the occasional cam with a bad lobe, but it's rare. It's almost always a problem with the tappets,""

No need for me to look for your reply )

 

[Cujet]

Sorry for not being clear. But I'm not promoting anything. I have no agenda.

I "believe" aircraft engine oil is not ideal for motorcycles. Mostly due to the lack of ZDDP.