Recent Topics
1.6 EB ,RL 5w20,18175 miles OCI,TAN>TBN
by ovidiu - 04/08/20 01:02 PM
cut ADBV in Mobil1 oil filter
by RavenTai - 04/08/20 12:55 PM
Oil shopping USA vs France
by M119 - 04/08/20 11:50 AM
Blackstone labs... open??
by researcher - 04/08/20 11:41 AM
Hyundai 2.4 Engine Issues
by Hallj49803 - 04/08/20 11:36 AM
Do old style centrifugal filters do anything?
by atikovi - 04/08/20 11:34 AM
NAPA oil deals
by Oildudeny - 04/08/20 11:17 AM
Oil weight spec thinning over time?
by MontePrix28 - 04/08/20 10:12 AM
High Performance Lubricants PDS
by High Performance Lubricants - 04/08/20 10:11 AM
13 Hyundai Sonata 24 vs 12 Jetta 2.0 TDI
by Hallj49803 - 04/08/20 10:09 AM
Mustang 4.6L spark plug change
by kstanf150 - 04/08/20 10:03 AM
Cutting Cable-Roku?
by PontiacHO - 04/08/20 09:59 AM
Mor gas price fun.
by Chris142 - 04/08/20 09:42 AM
Instagram
by Al - 04/08/20 09:03 AM
Super Moon Photos
by Snagglefoot - 04/08/20 07:30 AM
Lord Willing, I'm Gonna Buy a Tundra
by Speak2Mountain - 04/08/20 07:05 AM
Discount Tire Resumes All Services
by Egg_Head - 04/08/20 06:07 AM
Nissan Airbag settlement check and another recall
by MoneyJohn - 04/08/20 04:23 AM
Newest Members
LMVLS1, Jotorobi, jhoffy22, EcoBoosted, mmich187
71126 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
121 registered members (55hambone, Alfred_B, 53' Stude, 77GrandPrix, 1foxracing, 1978elcamino, 7 invisible), 2,339 guests, and 17 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics303,770
Posts5,241,624
Members71,126
Most Online4,538
Jan 20th, 2020
Donate to BITOG
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 41 of 44 1 40 41 42 44
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Gokhan] #5049332 03/20/19 08:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 9,427
ekpolk Offline
Global Moderator
Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 9,427
Thirteen pages . . . and still in search of a "final verdict"! Our court system does better than this!!!

This one's officially nominated for the "Most Ironic Thread Name Ever on BITOG" award.


18 Prius Two-Eco (L-Ion Batt), Mag Grey, 4000 miles (M1 AFE 0W-20).
07 Avalon XLS, Cassis Pearl, only 70k miles (M1 EP 5w-30).
04 Prius, Black, 200k miles (M1 EP 5w-30). 2006-2019 --RIP 😥
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Shannow] #5049471 03/21/19 03:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,128
G
Garak Offline
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,128
Yes, Shannow, and I posted a spreadsheet ages ago with error analysis, as you recall, that showed the same thing. If I can't tell the difference between very high HTHS CJ-4 Delvac 1 versus an ILSAC 5w-30, then this won't wash, either.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: ekpolk] #5050213 03/21/19 06:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,822
G
Gokhan Offline OP
OP Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by ekpolk
Thirteen pages . . . and still in search of a "final verdict"! Our court system does better than this!!!

This one's officially nominated for the "Most Ironic Thread Name Ever on BITOG" award.

Yes, the eternal thin vs. thick debate.

Plus, a new debate also covered in this thread -- Thin vs. thin: PAO vs. inferior base oils.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 70 mpg on gas, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Shannow] #5050222 03/21/19 06:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,822
G
Gokhan Offline OP
OP Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by Shannow
You can't claim that resolution tank to tank...

Here's my Colorado, all 2.5 tonnes of it, filled typically at the same bowser, with the same "run to click", count to 20 to release air bubbles, then run half speed to next click...every time).

As you can see the variability is far beyond the resolution that you are claiming tank to tank.

I would certainly not argue against it.

These are good MPG numbers. Do you have the 4-cylinder or V6? Mostly highway driving, I assume?

Here is my data, since I started recording it. I try to use the same pump and park in the same position as much as I can. Then, when done, I wait for ten seconds and push the nozzle in a couple of times.

[Linked Image]

TGMO 0W-20 SN vs. M1 0W-40 SN MPG comparison is probably misleading because my driving conditions were somewhat more short trips and city driving with TGMO 0W-20 SN than with the M1 0W-40. The MPG study is definitely not a controlled one and the average numbers shouldn't be interpreted absolutely.

One thing that is striking tough, you don't see as many data points with TGMO 0W-20 below 20 MPG than you do with M1 0W-40. It seems to indicate that when it comes to city driving and short trips, a thinner oil is a clear winner. There is probably not a striking difference in highway driving though.

Yes, so far only two data points with M1 EP 0W-20 and the car saw more highway driving than typically seen with TGMO 0W-20. However, I'm really familiar with this car and there seems to be an improvement in fuel economy. The new air filter (and spark plugs, although the old spark plus were still in good shape) may also be affecting it somewhat.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 70 mpg on gas, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Gokhan] #5050244 03/21/19 06:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 13,072
PimTac Offline
Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 13,072
This thread is like a Godzilla movie. Just when you thought you killed it, it returns.


PAO versus inferior base oils. Was that before or the sequel to this thread? Inferior is a harsh word. PAO is not the end all to be all.

Last edited by PimTac; 03/21/19 06:39 PM.

2017 Mazda CX5
Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Gokhan] #5050323 03/21/19 08:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,328
2015_PSD Offline
Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,328
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Gokhan
I got a very nice 29.0 MPG in mixed driving in my first tank.
Update: 27.0 MPG in mostly city mixed driving in my second tank. This is far better than what I was getting before. Sure, the new air filter could have made a difference, but the PAO-based M1 EP 0W-20 SN PLUS is a very low-friction oil from how the engine sounds and feels.
Since this was not conducted in a laboratory under controlled, repeatable conditions, we can safely assume that as a minimum the following variables exist:

-- Climate (temperature, relative humidity, barometric pressure)
-- Driving conditions (traffic patterns, time of day, your driving skills, locations)
-- Fuel (different batches, average octane, fill levels)
-- Vehicle (tire pressure, load, condition)

So with all of that as a minimum in the number/types of variations, you are stating the air filter may have made a difference, but more certainly, the oil did because it is low-friction (suggesting it is lower friction than other xW-20 oils) based on how the engine sounds and feels and the oil is the primary reason your MPG increased?


2019 o)|||||(o Rubicon Wrangler Unlimited 3.6L V6 [Castrol Edge + Hastings]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum + Mann filter]
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Gokhan] #5050336 03/21/19 08:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,045
Z
ZeeOSix Offline
Offline
Z
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 23,045
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Here is my data, since I started recording it. I try to use the same pump and park in the same position as much as I can. Then, when done, I wait for ten seconds and push the nozzle in a couple of times.

[Linked Image]


Two data points with M1 EP 0W-20 ... clearly not enough data yet with that oil.

Also no real difference seen between M1 0W-40 and TGMO 0W-20... too much scatter to make any real trend conclusions.

Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Gokhan] #5050549 03/22/19 04:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,128
G
Garak Offline
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,128
I'd also add that the only figure I'd have real confidence with respect to having four significant figures is the price spent at the pump, given that the uncertainty should only be rounding up or down to the nearest penny. Everything else is a stretch beyond 2 or 3.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: ekpolk] #5051136 03/22/19 04:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 410
N
NGRhodes Offline
Offline
N
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 410
Originally Posted by ekpolk
Thirteen pages . . . and still in search of a "final verdict"! Our court system does better than this!!!

This one's officially nominated for the "Most Ironic Thread Name Ever on BITOG" award.


Not forgetting this started as a which protects better but is now talking about which gives better MPG.

Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Gokhan] #5051166 03/22/19 04:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 367
D
Direct_Rejection Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 367
I have found M1 EP 0W20,
with its high PAO base stock,
to cause my engine to be the noisiest.

Conversely, Pennzoil Gold 0W20,
with its Group II & Group III,
not even GTL base stock,
to cause my engine to be the quietest.

Good add pack
&
meet the specs
for the win.


2019 Lexus UX 250h F-Sport
M1 AFE 0W16
@ 42k miles




Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Direct_Rejection] #5051189 03/22/19 05:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 41,881
O
OVERKILL Online Content
Online Content
O
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 41,881
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
I have found M1 EP 0W20,
with its high PAO base stock,
to cause my engine to be the noisiest.

Conversely, Pennzoil Gold 0W20,
with its Group II & Group III,
not even GTL base stock,
to cause my engine to be the quietest.

Good add pack
&
meet the specs
for the win.



So your engine prefers the sound deadening effects of plastic grin

In all seriousness though, the VII treat rate on M1 EP will be a small fraction of what it is in that Pennzoil Gold product because it will be blended with heavier bases. It's quite possible that the acoustic characteristics of VII polymers are favourable in this scenario and is the reason for your observations.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2020 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: ZeeOSix] #5051200 03/22/19 05:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,328
2015_PSD Offline
Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,328
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Also no real difference seen between M1 0W-40 and TGMO 0W-20... too much scatter to make any real trend conclusions.
Agreed; 1/10 of a point between a xW-20 and a xW-40 oil from a single comparison related to MPG is statistical background noise at best and goes a long way in pointing out what this "experiment" and the "results" actually are.


2019 o)|||||(o Rubicon Wrangler Unlimited 3.6L V6 [Castrol Edge + Hastings]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum + Mann filter]
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: OVERKILL] #5051250 03/22/19 06:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,822
G
Gokhan Offline OP
OP Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
So your engine prefers the sound deadening effects of plastic grin

In all seriousness though, the VII treat rate on M1 EP will be a small fraction of what it is in that Pennzoil Gold product because it will be blended with heavier bases. It's quite possible that the acoustic characteristics of VII polymers are favourable in this scenario and is the reason for your observations.

Here is my latest A_Harman index table. The column labeled "VII" is equal to 1 - A_Harman index and it's an approximate measure of the viscosity-index improver (VII) content, even though technically it represents the VII temporary shear at 150 C temperature and 1,000,000 per second shear rate.

[Linked Image]

Now, surprisingly, Pennzoil Gold 0W-20 virtually ties with M1 EP 0W-20 in (lack of) VII. In fact, I assumed HTHSV = 2.6 cP for it and if HTHSV is higher, it would readily beat M1 EP 0W-20. M1 EP 0W-20 is only second to M1 ESP x2 0w-20 (an MB 229.71/ACEA C5 oil), which, along with M1 AP 5W-20, has less VII than any oil listed here except for the monograde Amsoil 30 (also qualifies as a 10W-30), VAS 5W-20, and Delvac Super 1300 15W-40.

So, it's hard to believe that Pennzoil Gold 0W-20 is a synthetic blend. It's possibly a full synthetic. It readily beats PPPP 0W-20 and PUPPP 0W-20 in VII content.

Regarding how the engine sounds, well... I really like how M1 EP 0W-20 SN PLUS sounds in my engine. Who knows, perhaps I'm hearing the metal grinding away, but I like the sound. wink It sounds like the engine has lower friction with it in my perception but if some interpret it as the engine being louder, which I didn't notice, it could be more of a perception issue than a scientific observation, until people grab sound-level meters and start scientific observations.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 70 mpg on gas, ~ 5,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Gokhan] #5051318 03/22/19 08:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 41,881
O
OVERKILL Online Content
Online Content
O
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 41,881
Originally Posted by Gokhan

Now, surprisingly, Pennzoil Gold 0W-20 virtually ties with M1 EP 0W-20 in (lack of) VII. In fact, I assumed HTHSV = 2.6 cP for it and if HTHSV is higher, it would readily beat M1 EP 0W-20. M1 EP 0W-20 is only second to M1 ESP x2 0w-20 (an MB 229.71/ACEA C5 oil), which, along with M1 AP 5W-20, has less VII than any oil listed here except for the monograde Amsoil 30 (also qualifies as a 10W-30), VAS 5W-20, and Delvac Super 1300 15W-40.

So, it's hard to believe that Pennzoil Gold 0W-20 is a synthetic blend. It's possibly a full synthetic. It readily beats PPPP 0W-20 and PUPPP 0W-20 in VII content.

Regarding how the engine sounds, well... I really like how M1 EP 0W-20 SN PLUS sounds in my engine. Who knows, perhaps I'm hearing the metal grinding away, but I like the sound. wink It sounds like the engine has lower friction with it in my perception but if some interpret it as the engine being louder, which I didn't notice, it could be more of a perception issue than a scientific observation, until people grab sound-level meters and start scientific observations.


I think we need to hit pause here for a second. Does it not strike you as odd that M1 EP 0w-20 would have a 5.5% VII treat rate and its sibling, AP 0w-20, which has the same amount of PAO, is 10%? Both have almost identical VI's too. Doesn't smell right to me shrug Also, AP Flash point: 242C, EP? 235C. I'm guessing the HTHS for both of these lubes is rounded. AP could be 2.64 and EP could be 2.65 for example, and that's skewing the calculations.

Playing around with the calculator using the above theory:
EP:
A_Harman Index: 0.926

AP:
A_Harman Index: 0.913

BTW, I noticed you used the KV40 for AP 0w-20 from the MSDS. I'd be hesitant to do that and here's why:

The MSDS for EP 0w-20 lists:
KV100: 8.4cSt
KV40: N/A
Flash: 235C
Pour: -45C

The MSDS for AP 0w-20 lists:
KV100: 8.7cSt
KV40: 45.7cSt
Flash: >200C
Pour: -45C

We know that the Pour Point is wrong for both of them. KV100 is wrong for EP and KV40 isn't even listed. So I'd be skeptical of that number IMHO. I'd wager both have basically the same VII content and the deviation we are seeing here is the result of rounding.

For Pennzoil Gold "blend" 0w-20 BTW, I think your sniffer is working properly. The MSDS shows 70-90% GTL LOL

I'm going to say that the lack of digits after the decimal for the KV values is, at the resolution we are trying to achieve here, screwing us, for example, using the Gold w/HTHS 2.6:
KV100 8.44, Index becomes 0.937.

If rounding is allowed in HTHS, IE 2.58 can be rounded to 2.6 then that adds another layer of fudge factor here smile


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2020 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict [Re: Gokhan] #5051344 03/22/19 08:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 41,881
O
OVERKILL Online Content
Online Content
O
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 41,881
BTW, another thing I find interesting is that for the Gold 0w-20, the Pour Point is -48C. Given it is basically entirely GTL based, that points to a very light base oil and a significant dose of PPD. Even Yubase 4+ only has a PP of -15C:
https://www.repsol.com/imagenes/global/en/base_oils_gii_giii_tcm14-19328.pdf

Would be really nice if we had Noack...

Last edited by OVERKILL; 03/22/19 08:32 PM.

2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2020 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Page 41 of 44 1 40 41 42 44
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™