Many synthetic oil manufactures claim that their oil will bond to, or get absorbed by metal. If true, how long does this process take?
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Oil "bonding," or "absorbing"
- Thread starter Yuk
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Maybe the polar nature of esters?
However, it's not really as useful as it sounds. I had a
discussion with a testing lab engineer who indicated that it could be counterproductive when the base oil overly "competes" with additives for surface area.
However, it's not really as useful as it sounds. I had a
discussion with a testing lab engineer who indicated that it could be counterproductive when the base oil overly "competes" with additives for surface area.
Thanks, that kind of explains the how, but what I'm looking for is how long. As in, "it takes 24 hrs for the oil to get fully absorbed into the metal", or something like that.
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Originally Posted by Yuk
Thanks, that kind of explains the how, but what I'm looking for is how long. As in, "it takes 24 hrs for the oil to get fully absorbed into the metal", or something like that.
I don't believe base oil does that to any great degree, and most definitely solid metals don't absorb anything.
Now apparently it takes time for ZDDP antiwear additives to form a "phosphate glass" that serves as a sacrificial layer against metal to metal contact.
https://cen.acs.org/articles/84/i31/ZDDP-motor-oil.html
Thanks, that kind of explains the how, but what I'm looking for is how long. As in, "it takes 24 hrs for the oil to get fully absorbed into the metal", or something like that.
I don't believe base oil does that to any great degree, and most definitely solid metals don't absorb anything.
Now apparently it takes time for ZDDP antiwear additives to form a "phosphate glass" that serves as a sacrificial layer against metal to metal contact.
https://cen.acs.org/articles/84/i31/ZDDP-motor-oil.html
MolaKule
Staff member
In the context of your question, absorb is to take up or receive by chemical, molecular, or capillary action:
E.g., Carbonic acid is formed when water absorbs carbon dioxide (such as in Soda Pop).
Soft Drink Chemistry
E.g., A sponge "absorbs" a liquid by capillary action.
Capillary Action
Certain polar chemicals and additive compounds are attracted to metals by "Coulombic forces."
Coulombic Attraction
That is, certain chemical compounds can be "attracted" to metals but cannot be absorbed by metals.
Metals used in the Drive Train have closely-spaced atomic structures so oil molecules cannot be "absorbed" into those metals.
If you can show any advertising or labeling where a claim is made as to the absorption of oil molecules by metals, let me know.
E.g., Carbonic acid is formed when water absorbs carbon dioxide (such as in Soda Pop).
Soft Drink Chemistry
E.g., A sponge "absorbs" a liquid by capillary action.
Capillary Action
Certain polar chemicals and additive compounds are attracted to metals by "Coulombic forces."
Coulombic Attraction
That is, certain chemical compounds can be "attracted" to metals but cannot be absorbed by metals.
Metals used in the Drive Train have closely-spaced atomic structures so oil molecules cannot be "absorbed" into those metals.
If you can show any advertising or labeling where a claim is made as to the absorption of oil molecules by metals, let me know.
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Kestas
Staff member
Originally Posted by y_p_w
I don't believe base oil does that to any great degree, and most definitely solid metals don't absorb anything.
^^This. Metal doesn't absorb chemicals. The only substance steel can absorb at room temperature is hydrogen.
I don't believe base oil does that to any great degree, and most definitely solid metals don't absorb anything.
^^This. Metal doesn't absorb chemicals. The only substance steel can absorb at room temperature is hydrogen.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
In the context of your question, absorb is to take up or receive by chemical, molecular, or capillary action:
E.g., Carbonic acid is formed when water absorbs carbon dioxide (such as in Soda Pop).
Soft Drink Chemistry
E.g., A sponge "absorbs" a liquid by capillary action.
Capillary Action
Certain polar chemicals and additive compounds are attracted to metals by "Coulombic forces." Coulombic Attraction
That is, certain chemical compounds can be "attracted" to metals but cannot be absorbed by metals.
Metals used in engines have closely-spaced atomic structures so oil molecules cannot be "absorbed" into those metals.
If you can show any advertising or labeling where a claim is made as to the absorption of oil molecules, let me know.
Awesome, thanks!
It was never my intention to assert that oil gets "absorbed" into metal. It was simply a word that I thought companies used, but if they use another word like "bond" with the metal, thats fine. Let's say oil can "bond" with metal, how long will it take for the bonding to take place?
At this point I'll add another question. Is heat needed for this bonding to take place, or does the mere presence of the oil on the metal surface initiate bonding?
In the context of your question, absorb is to take up or receive by chemical, molecular, or capillary action:
E.g., Carbonic acid is formed when water absorbs carbon dioxide (such as in Soda Pop).
Soft Drink Chemistry
E.g., A sponge "absorbs" a liquid by capillary action.
Capillary Action
Certain polar chemicals and additive compounds are attracted to metals by "Coulombic forces." Coulombic Attraction
That is, certain chemical compounds can be "attracted" to metals but cannot be absorbed by metals.
Metals used in engines have closely-spaced atomic structures so oil molecules cannot be "absorbed" into those metals.
If you can show any advertising or labeling where a claim is made as to the absorption of oil molecules, let me know.
Awesome, thanks!
It was never my intention to assert that oil gets "absorbed" into metal. It was simply a word that I thought companies used, but if they use another word like "bond" with the metal, thats fine. Let's say oil can "bond" with metal, how long will it take for the bonding to take place?
At this point I'll add another question. Is heat needed for this bonding to take place, or does the mere presence of the oil on the metal surface initiate bonding?
MolaKule
Staff member
Generally speaking, the attraction takes place immediately.
Now, we have to deal with another concept, and that is "Activation Temperature."
Heat tends to speed up activation of almost any chemical reaction.
Let's say the ZDDP molecule gets attracted to steel. Little happens at room temp. Heat (either through conduction or localized pressure) would cause the chemical reaction to speedup and gives rise to a semi-glassy structure composed mainly of a ferrous-sulfur-zinc-phosphate, a compound known to provide primarily Anti-Wear and secondarily anti-oxidation capabilities.
Now, we have to deal with another concept, and that is "Activation Temperature."
Heat tends to speed up activation of almost any chemical reaction.
Let's say the ZDDP molecule gets attracted to steel. Little happens at room temp. Heat (either through conduction or localized pressure) would cause the chemical reaction to speedup and gives rise to a semi-glassy structure composed mainly of a ferrous-sulfur-zinc-phosphate, a compound known to provide primarily Anti-Wear and secondarily anti-oxidation capabilities.
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Great!
So, if I understand you correctly, after initial contact, more time at room temperature probably won't result in a more comprehensive bond. If a greater bond is possible, it will probably only occur when more pressure, or heat is applied?
So, if I understand you correctly, after initial contact, more time at room temperature probably won't result in a more comprehensive bond. If a greater bond is possible, it will probably only occur when more pressure, or heat is applied?
MolaKule
Staff member
Well, I wouldn't use the word Bonding because bonding implies some measure of "adhesiveness."
In the case of the ZDDP molecule (an Ester molecule), the sulfur atom increases the polar attraction to the metal and upon heat activation, the resulting chemical reaction is the result of Surface Interactions.
In the case of the ZDDP molecule (an Ester molecule), the sulfur atom increases the polar attraction to the metal and upon heat activation, the resulting chemical reaction is the result of Surface Interactions.
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Here's an example of a "bonding" oil. If you want to move this thread to another forum, due to the non-automotive application, I'm cool with that.
This site, http://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewl.php, uses both the words bonding and absorption:
"Slip 2000 EWL has incorporated advanced technology additives to enhance film strength and anti-wear properties. Penetrating the pores and bonding its self to the surface of the metal through physical absorption reducing surface tension thereby reducing friction between moving parts and minimizing wear and the build-up of wear related debris."
This site, http://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewl.php, uses both the words bonding and absorption:
"Slip 2000 EWL has incorporated advanced technology additives to enhance film strength and anti-wear properties. Penetrating the pores and bonding its self to the surface of the metal through physical absorption reducing surface tension thereby reducing friction between moving parts and minimizing wear and the build-up of wear related debris."
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Originally Posted by Yuk
Here's an example of a "bonding" oil. If you want to move this thread to another forum, due to the non-automotive application, I'm cool with that.
This site, http://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewl.php, uses both the words bonding and absorption:
"Slip 2000 EWL has incorporated advanced technology additives to enhance film strength and anti-wear properties. Penetrating the pores and bonding its self to the surface of the metal through physical absorption reducing surface tension thereby reducing friction between moving parts and minimizing wear and the build-up of wear related debris."
I think that's an example of advertising/marketing. Its the very thing that Molakule is saying does not acutally happen. As i understand what they are saying, oil fills the open surface asperities, but does not absorb into metal.
Here's an example of a "bonding" oil. If you want to move this thread to another forum, due to the non-automotive application, I'm cool with that.
This site, http://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewl.php, uses both the words bonding and absorption:
"Slip 2000 EWL has incorporated advanced technology additives to enhance film strength and anti-wear properties. Penetrating the pores and bonding its self to the surface of the metal through physical absorption reducing surface tension thereby reducing friction between moving parts and minimizing wear and the build-up of wear related debris."
I think that's an example of advertising/marketing. Its the very thing that Molakule is saying does not acutally happen. As i understand what they are saying, oil fills the open surface asperities, but does not absorb into metal.
Originally Posted by Yuk
Here's an example of a "bonding" oil. If you want to move this thread to another forum, due to the non-automotive application, I'm cool with that.
This site, http://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewl.php, uses both the words bonding and absorption:
"Slip 2000 EWL has incorporated advanced technology additives to enhance film strength and anti-wear properties. Penetrating the pores and bonding its self to the surface of the metal through physical absorption reducing surface tension thereby reducing friction between moving parts and minimizing wear and the build-up of wear related debris."
I like where they say Slip 2000 reduces friction by 90-95%. 90-95% over what? Slick advertising there.
Here's an example of a "bonding" oil. If you want to move this thread to another forum, due to the non-automotive application, I'm cool with that.
This site, http://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewl.php, uses both the words bonding and absorption:
"Slip 2000 EWL has incorporated advanced technology additives to enhance film strength and anti-wear properties. Penetrating the pores and bonding its self to the surface of the metal through physical absorption reducing surface tension thereby reducing friction between moving parts and minimizing wear and the build-up of wear related debris."
I like where they say Slip 2000 reduces friction by 90-95%. 90-95% over what? Slick advertising there.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by Yuk
Here's an example of a "bonding" oil. If you want to move this thread to another forum, due to the non-automotive application, I'm cool with that.
This site, http://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewl.php, uses both the words bonding and absorption:
"Slip 2000 EWL has incorporated advanced technology additives to enhance film strength and anti-wear properties. Penetrating the pores and bonding its self to the surface of the metal through physical absorption reducing surface tension thereby reducing friction between moving parts and minimizing wear and the build-up of wear related debris."
What spasm said about marketing and hype, but let's look further at the wording:
Quote
Penetrating the pores...
!) What pores? If the engine block has "porosity" then we have major problems with the casting and forging. There are no pores in a good engine casting. If they meant "filling asperities" then they should have said so.
Quote
and bonding its self [itself] to the surface of the metal through physical absorption reducing surface tension
2) This implies bonding to the metal through the action of absorption. Bonding and absorption, as stated earlier, are two different concepts and therefore one does not equate to the other and neither of those two concepts equate to surface tension, and surface tension was thrown in at the last minute to obfuscate the issue even further.
Surface Tension
Absorption of large oil molecules into much smaller alloyed crystals, as also explained earlier, is physically impossible.
This same rhetoric was tried by Zmax and was shown to be false.
This is simply an example of marketing Hype and Hyperbole by a marketer or advertising agency who knows nothing about chemistry or metallurgy.
Here's an example of a "bonding" oil. If you want to move this thread to another forum, due to the non-automotive application, I'm cool with that.
This site, http://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewl.php, uses both the words bonding and absorption:
"Slip 2000 EWL has incorporated advanced technology additives to enhance film strength and anti-wear properties. Penetrating the pores and bonding its self to the surface of the metal through physical absorption reducing surface tension thereby reducing friction between moving parts and minimizing wear and the build-up of wear related debris."
What spasm said about marketing and hype, but let's look further at the wording:
Quote
Penetrating the pores...
!) What pores? If the engine block has "porosity" then we have major problems with the casting and forging. There are no pores in a good engine casting. If they meant "filling asperities" then they should have said so.
Quote
and bonding its self [itself] to the surface of the metal through physical absorption reducing surface tension
2) This implies bonding to the metal through the action of absorption. Bonding and absorption, as stated earlier, are two different concepts and therefore one does not equate to the other and neither of those two concepts equate to surface tension, and surface tension was thrown in at the last minute to obfuscate the issue even further.
Surface Tension
Absorption of large oil molecules into much smaller alloyed crystals, as also explained earlier, is physically impossible.
This same rhetoric was tried by Zmax and was shown to be false.
This is simply an example of marketing Hype and Hyperbole by a marketer or advertising agency who knows nothing about chemistry or metallurgy.
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MolaKule
Staff member
BTW, because bonding implies some measure of "adhesiveness," reducing surface tension would therefore reduce any so-called "Bonding or Adhesiveness."
Furthermore, the terms "porous" or "porosity" are not the same as "asperities." Porosity is the property of being porous; i.e., being able to absorb fluid such as the sponge or sintered brass.
An asperity is a surface quality:
Asperities
Furthermore, the terms "porous" or "porosity" are not the same as "asperities." Porosity is the property of being porous; i.e., being able to absorb fluid such as the sponge or sintered brass.
An asperity is a surface quality:
Asperities
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Thanks Mola!
I guess this is why Castrol stopped making the bonding claims, when they rebranded from Syntec to Edge.
I guess this is why Castrol stopped making the bonding claims, when they rebranded from Syntec to Edge.
Think of the attraction of the oil and metal as a balloon rubbed in your hair sticking to the wall. When you rub the balloon it acquires a negative charge and is attracted to the relatively positively charged wall. This is exactly what is happening with the esters and other polar molecules, such as zddp in oil. The polar molecules have a negatively charged end caused by the presence of oxygen or sulfur. Metal carries a slight positive charge.
Ed
Ed
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MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by Yuk
Thanks Mola!
I guess this is why Castrol stopped making the bonding claims, when they rebranded from Syntec to Edge.
I have no idea what Castrol did when rebranding their products.
That's why we need to look at the science verses marketing language and understand what these terms mean, so we aren't fooled by their exaggerations, embellishments, and in most cases, downright unsupported claims.
Thanks Mola!
I guess this is why Castrol stopped making the bonding claims, when they rebranded from Syntec to Edge.
I have no idea what Castrol did when rebranding their products.
That's why we need to look at the science verses marketing language and understand what these terms mean, so we aren't fooled by their exaggerations, embellishments, and in most cases, downright unsupported claims.
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Originally Posted by Yuk
Thanks Mola!
I guess this is why Castrol stopped making the bonding claims, when they rebranded from Syntec to Edge.
They stopped using esters (except in some versions) a long time ago when they switched to Group III. I remember the Castrol Syntec pamphlets that showed some static bonding where the polar nature of the esters were portrayed as lining up in an orderly manner coating a metal surface.
Thanks Mola!
I guess this is why Castrol stopped making the bonding claims, when they rebranded from Syntec to Edge.
They stopped using esters (except in some versions) a long time ago when they switched to Group III. I remember the Castrol Syntec pamphlets that showed some static bonding where the polar nature of the esters were portrayed as lining up in an orderly manner coating a metal surface.
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