Did oil really get better?

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Looking at the old CI oil I use, the Zinc and Phosphorus levels were around 1600/1400. And calcium was around 3500. Now the CK oil is 1000/900 and calcium around 2000. Delo and Delvac even lower. So my question is, how is this better? I understand new equipment might have different engine designs, but what about the older stuff?
 
Its really not that much better but the hype and the continued shoving of LSPI on to the customers is still working. This is an engineering SNAFU needs to be put back in the camp of the manufacturers.
 
They are replacing ZDDP with other EP additives, to include moly. Some EP additives may not even show up on a VOA. I try not to worry too much, but I still do. I'm about to build a pretty stout Ford 390 for my Torino and I've already chosen my cam and valvesprings. Comp Cams used to recommend break in of their cams with Rotella T4 15w-40. Comp Cams and Joe Gibbs Oil are now in bed together, so the recommendation is Gibbs break in oil. I will break my engine in on Rotella T4. The 5 gallon bucket I have is CK rated. I bet it will be fine.
 
Did oil really get better?
Nope, not for the vehicles in your signature.
If you don't have cold starts, I'd say to look into Delvac straight grades for the older formulations with more Z and P.
If you need a multigrade, Redline 81403 additive will boost whatever oil you choose.
 
Originally Posted by 69Torino
They are replacing ZDDP with other EP additives, to include moly. Some EP additives may not even show up on a VOA. I try not to worry too much, but I still do. I'm about to build a pretty stout Ford 390 for my Torino and I've already chosen my cam and valvesprings. Comp Cams used to recommend break in of their cams with Rotella T4 15w-40. Comp Cams and Joe Gibbs Oil are now in bed together, so the recommendation is Gibbs break in oil. I will break my engine in on Rotella T4. The 5 gallon bucket I have is CK rated. I bet it will be fine.
I would use a bottle of Comp Cams, Rislone, or Eastwood ZDDP additive in it with the CK-4 T4-I used Comp Cams' additive with my brother's flat tappet '67 283 stroker motor, and it's been doing just fine on it using Delvac 1300 15W40.
 
I will definitely use Comp Cams additive for break in, maybe a couple rounds of oil changes. Will either run T6 or Delo 5W-40 after break in.
 
Originally Posted by 69Torino
I will definitely use Comp Cams additive for break in, maybe a couple rounds of oil changes. Will either run T6 or Delo 5W-40 after break in.


I would consider the NEW Rotella T6 15w40 for after break in if it was my engine.
 
Keep in mind that decreased TBN has been possible partly due to decreased sulfur in the fuel. In diesel engines, soot-induced wear has been improved partly due to increased dispersancy by preventing tendency of soot particles to agglomerate and be extra abrasive. Antioxidants have been improved and been used in higher concentrations. Base oils have improved in the non-synthetic oils. Supplemental anti-wear additives are in greater use than they used to be.
 
JAG - i like your posts in general, but this one made me laugh out loud.

Real world findings about newer oils don't corroborate your theories as far as "decreased TBN with decreased sulphur in diesel engines".

I'll leave the "soot induced wear" and "increased dispersancy by preventing agglomeration of soot particles & their extra abrasiveness" alone for now ;-)

Originally Posted by JAG
Keep in mind that decreased TBN has been possible partly due to decreased sulfur in the fuel. In diesel engines, soot-induced wear has been improved partly due to increased dispersancy by preventing tendency of soot particles to agglomerate and be extra abrasive. Antioxidants have been improved and been used in higher concentrations. Base oils have improved in the non-synthetic oils. Supplemental anti-wear additives are in greater use than they used to be.
 
Ok, ofelas, please state what you believe to be facts that are in disagreement with my statements. I always welcome me being able to improve my understandings.
 
I would say it depends upon from which angle one is looking at it. Yes, ULSD certainly did make lower TBN less of an issue, so we can say that ULSD make lower TBN possible. From the other perspective, what made the lower TBN actually happen was the CJ-4 rollout, where we saw SA limited to 1. HDEOs lacking E7 (or only having E9 or lacking ACEA sequences altogether) tended to have lower TBN. Anything that was CJ-4, E7, E9 wasn't as dramatically different.
 
IMO oils didn't get better, they got heavily influenced by groups such as CAFE/EPA and other idiotic acronyms that have to justify their existence. Long gone are the days where an oil is blended and designed to protect the engine as best as possible. Now its all about EPA, economy, don't pollute the CAT or DPF etc.
 
Oh the new HDEOs are just awful! I made a mistake using one that is also SN rated with less than 800 ppm phosphorus and it's killing my engine. At each oil change, I not only get fresh oil and filters, but I pop the valve cover off and replace both camshafts, too. Oh it's so bad!





crackmeup2.gif
 
Originally Posted by racin4ds
Originally Posted by ofelas
One valve cover lets you access both camshafts?


Me thinks he was being facetious...
wink.gif



Yes. I was speaking of my DD13 which is a straight 6 with overhead cams and a one piece valve cover.

And yes, I was being silly about swapping out the cams at each oil change. I saw this thread and "bit my tongue" for a few days but today I couldn't resist. My Detroit has over 400k miles on it now, with the last 317k miles running with Chevron's CK-4/SN oils. I recently finished another 58k mile OCI with Delo XLE. I will update my UOA thread when I get my results on the last OCI.

The OP mentioned that he's using CI-4 oil that has all that wonderful phosphorus and zinc. Back in the days of CI-4 oils, I was trying to get close to 30k miles (was using 4000 gallons of fuel as my determining factor) between drains. During my summer time OCIs the hard work would thicken the 15W-40 viscosity into the 17-18 cSt range at 100C. Now I'm getting 55k-58k miles without breaking a sweat.

Twenty years ago, one million miles without an overhaul (speaking of heavy duty diesels) was a decent target. Since CJ-4 came along (around 2006 if my memory serves me right), one million miles is nothing. Obviously, there are plenty of issues that can mess that up; bad metallurgy, losing coolant and overheating, driver errors, etc. The point is, the oils may look different on our VOAs and UOAs now, but the formulations are clearly working well. The tests required to pass CK-4 are tougher than the previous categories and the engine manufacturer's related tests are tougher yet. There's obviously more to an oil than what we see on paper.

CK-4 provides improved shear stability, oxidation stability, better control of aeration, and maintains cold weather properties longer. That's all good to me.
 
Originally Posted by racin4ds
Now its all about EPA, economy, don't pollute the CAT or DPF etc.

The OEMs wanted that, not the EPA, particularly with respect to cat, DPF, and so forth.
 
Ah, dustyroads, gotcha re the DD13, thought you were speaking about the F150 in your signature :)

BTW, there's CK4 oils with plenty zinc & phos too, I don't believe the 40 grades are are subject to the low levels restriction?
 
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