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NOACK volatility numbers #5042880
03/14/19 01:42 PM
03/14/19 01:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 23
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k9jadon Offline OP
k9jadon  Offline OP

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Why is the 15W40 Valvoline premium blue listed at 12% and other 15w40s are in the 4% range? I am just curious since I do not know what causes an oil's NOACK to be higher or lower. Thanks

Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: k9jadon] #5042905
03/14/19 01:59 PM
03/14/19 01:59 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,776
St. Charles County, Missouri
csandste Offline
csandste  Offline

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St. Charles County, Missouri
My guess. Others that no more will refute. It's full of cleaners and solvents, hence more volatility.


2017 Kia Soul Plus-- VWB 5-30, 54,000 miles.
Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: k9jadon] #5043038
03/14/19 04:01 PM
03/14/19 04:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,961
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline

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MN
I'm not seeing 4% NOACK numbers on 15w40 oils.
http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/consolidated%20HDEO%202015.html
In fact, I don't think I've ever seen any oil with NOACK at 4% or lower. I jump up and down with glee if I see 7%, on some high-end synthetics.

Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: k9jadon] #5043046
03/14/19 04:16 PM
03/14/19 04:16 PM
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MN
oil_film_movies Offline
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MN
A semi-syn 15w40 like the Premium Blue k9jadon mentioned needs more VII chemicals than one made from all synthetic base oils, especially if its GroupIII+ or PAO. More VII means higher NOACK.
Full syn 15w40 oils from Amsoil and Redline have NOACK around 5% to 7%.

Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: k9jadon] #5043191
03/14/19 07:17 PM
03/14/19 07:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,409
pa
benjy Online content
benjy  Online Content

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lower noack numbers are with higher viscosity oils with less lighter volatile oil that burns off quicker + even though real synthetic PAO + Ester base oils are better their 0W20's are NOT as good as their 5 or even better 10W30 oils.some manufacturers do not show lower poor noacks as the governmental push is for better mpgs + NOT longer engine life!!

Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: k9jadon] #5043399
03/14/19 11:18 PM
03/14/19 11:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,994
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
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Oregon
In order for Valvoline to compete at similar price points as XOM, Chevron, and Shell, they have to use a cheaper formula because they don’t make their own base stocks. The others are almost fully vertically integrated from well to shelf while Valvoline is not.


2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: Castrol 0W-40
Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: 1JZ_E46] #5043402
03/14/19 11:24 PM
03/14/19 11:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,148
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,148
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
In order for Valvoline to compete at similar price points as XOM, Chevron, and Shell, they have to use a cheaper formula because they don’t make their own base stocks. The others are almost fully vertically integrated from well to shelf while Valvoline is not.


Speaking specifically of those two Juggernauts, it's worth mentioning that they don't have to buy their additive packages either since they co-own Infineum.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Castrol Edge 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: 1JZ_E46] #5043404
03/14/19 11:27 PM
03/14/19 11:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,180
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline

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Texas
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
In order for Valvoline to compete at similar price points as XOM, Chevron, and Shell, they have to use a cheaper formula because they don’t make their own base stocks. The others are almost fully vertically integrated from well to shelf while Valvoline is not.


Sure enough … many formula blenders around … but a short list of companies I have called vital to our facets of life … planned and unplanned …

Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: k9jadon] #5043416
03/14/19 11:40 PM
03/14/19 11:40 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,776
St. Charles County, Missouri
csandste Offline
csandste  Offline

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St. Charles County, Missouri
Don't know if vertical integration means superior product for less money. I still think that super cleaning oils probably make up for it with more volatility. If you poured five quarts of kerosene in your sump wouldn't it do a lot of cleaning and destroy your engine with a sky high NOACK, i.e. so much volitility that the engine would seize.


2017 Kia Soul Plus-- VWB 5-30, 54,000 miles.
Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: csandste] #5043419
03/14/19 11:42 PM
03/14/19 11:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,148
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,148
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by csandste
Don't know if vertical integration means superior product for less money. I still think that super cleaning oils probably make up for it with more volatility. If you poured five quarts of kerosene in your sump wouldn't it do a lot of cleaning and destroy your engine with a sky high NOACK, i.e. so much volitility that the engine would seize.


It means that they can procure the components to produce the lubricant cheaper. Does that necessarily translate into a superior product at a lower price? No. But it is likely why M1 EP and AP are the only two readily available 0w-20's on the market from a major that are majority PAO-based for example. Ravenol would be too, but they are a new player and do not fit my definition of readily available at this juncture.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Castrol Edge 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: k9jadon] #5043726
03/15/19 11:19 AM
03/15/19 11:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 23
CA
k9jadon Offline OP
k9jadon  Offline OP

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AMSOIL's 15w40 diesel and marine oil is 4.8. And their latest 15w40 Ck4 is listed at 5.1.

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g473.pdf; https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g3467.pdf

The reason I didn't mention AMSOIL in the first place is because I just wanted thoughts on NOACK numbers and not opinions about how great or awful AMSOIL is.
So what I am gathering from everyone's posts is that some may have detergents which can burn off, or lower quality base oils, which burns off quickly, and when combined with the large quantities of detergents can drive the noack numbers up. Thank you guys for the info

Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: k9jadon] #5043733
03/15/19 11:27 AM
03/15/19 11:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 23
CA
k9jadon Offline OP
k9jadon  Offline OP

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CA
So further reading of the posts I would say that some of you consider high NOACK numbers to be detrimental to engine life. Am I coming to the correct conclusion?

Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: k9jadon] #5043794
03/15/19 12:38 PM
03/15/19 12:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,148
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,148
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by k9jadon
Why is the 15W40 Valvoline premium blue listed at 12% and other 15w40s are in the 4% range? I am just curious since I do not know what causes an oil's NOACK to be higher or lower. Thanks

Originally Posted by k9jadon
AMSOIL's 15w40 diesel and marine oil is 4.8. And their latest 15w40 Ck4 is listed at 5.1.

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g473.pdf; https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g3467.pdf

The reason I didn't mention AMSOIL in the first place is because I just wanted thoughts on NOACK numbers and not opinions about how great or awful AMSOIL is.


I think one needs to consider that when making ambiguous references to "other" 15w-40's, that when those products are in fact expensive boutique lubricants blended by a company where those are its primary business, that this is not an overly appropriate barometer for the market in general. While I understand the reluctance to spell out the products by name, some indication that we aren't dealing with "typical" lubes of this grade would have been extremely helpful.

Your Joe Average 15w-40, which is the predominant bulk fill for OTR diesels and similar is typically the lowest cost offering by major oil companies because these are high volume sales. The premium offerings are 5w-40 and 0w-40, both of which will use higher quality base stocks necessary to meet their respective Winter ratings. A 15w-40 can be blended extremely cheaply because you can use inexpensive bases from the lower groups to formulate due to the 15w Winter rating not being a difficult bar to meet. This is why major 15w-40's are almost all conventional lubes, with the odd semi.

Mobil's Delvac product line does not include a synthetic or even semi-synthetic 15w-40. Shell produces a semi-synthetic 15w-40, no full synthetic offering. Valvoline does not produce a synthetic or synthetic-blend 15w-40. Anybody ponying up for a synthetic would typically be more inclined toward a superior Winter rating as part of that cost.

So what is "typical" for a 15w-40 will be what the majors have going on for Noack, so I would posit that the 12% for VPB is thus likely "typical". Niche boutique offerings subsequently are a whole other discussion.



2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Castrol Edge 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: OVERKILL] #5046158
03/17/19 07:49 PM
03/17/19 07:49 PM
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Posts: 8,742
Cincinnati, OH, USA
bullwinkle Offline
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by k9jadon
Why is the 15W40 Valvoline premium blue listed at 12% and other 15w40s are in the 4% range? I am just curious since I do not know what causes an oil's NOACK to be higher or lower. Thanks

Originally Posted by k9jadon
AMSOIL's 15w40 diesel and marine oil is 4.8. And their latest 15w40 Ck4 is listed at 5.1.

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g473.pdf; https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g3467.pdf

The reason I didn't mention AMSOIL in the first place is because I just wanted thoughts on NOACK numbers and not opinions about how great or awful AMSOIL is.


I think one needs to consider that when making ambiguous references to "other" 15w-40's, that when those products are in fact expensive boutique lubricants blended by a company where those are its primary business, that this is not an overly appropriate barometer for the market in general. While I understand the reluctance to spell out the products by name, some indication that we aren't dealing with "typical" lubes of this grade would have been extremely helpful.

Your Joe Average 15w-40, which is the predominant bulk fill for OTR diesels and similar is typically the lowest cost offering by major oil companies because these are high volume sales. The premium offerings are 5w-40 and 0w-40, both of which will use higher quality base stocks necessary to meet their respective Winter ratings. A 15w-40 can be blended extremely cheaply because you can use inexpensive bases from the lower groups to formulate due to the 15w Winter rating not being a difficult bar to meet. This is why major 15w-40's are almost all conventional lubes, with the odd semi.

Mobil's Delvac product line does not include a synthetic or even semi-synthetic 15w-40. Shell produces a semi-synthetic 15w-40, no full synthetic offering. Valvoline does not produce a synthetic or synthetic-blend 15w-40. Anybody ponying up for a synthetic would typically be more inclined toward a superior Winter rating as part of that cost.

So what is "typical" for a 15w-40 will be what the majors have going on for Noack, so I would posit that the 12% for VPB is thus likely "typical". Niche boutique offerings subsequently are a whole other discussion.

Mobil Delvac Extreme is a synthetic blend 15W40, not sure of the NOACK rating. 12% seems to be a fair average for 15W40 oils, not sure what detriment a high NOACK would be in a non-GDI diesel, other than needing top-offs and maybe slight thickening?


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 93 GMC C3500 6.2, 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2)
Re: NOACK volatility numbers [Re: bullwinkle] #5046162
03/17/19 08:01 PM
03/17/19 08:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,148
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

Joined: Apr 2008
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Originally Posted by bullwinkle

Mobil Delvac Extreme is a synthetic blend 15W40, not sure of the NOACK rating. 12% seems to be a fair average for 15W40 oils, not sure what detriment a high NOACK would be in a non-GDI diesel, other than needing top-offs and maybe slight thickening?


thumbsup Must have missed that one on the mobiloil.com site. But yeah, that's my position as well, that it's likely quite average and that shouldn't be a concern for most applications that call for the grade.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Castrol Edge 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
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