0w8?

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by ekpolk

This isn't to suggest that engineering changes don't ever have unintended consequences (just look at what's happening to Boeing and their 737 at the moment.


Jumping to conclusions ... I'd say it's more along the lines of inadequate pilot training and skill, not a design problem.

Respectfully, it sounds like you're making just as much of a "jump" as I am -- obviously, the investigations of both mishaps are far from complete. But that's beside the point. I wasn't using this thread to assert an absolute conclusion about what is going on (if anything) with the 737. I guess I could have been clearer, but my point is that the max-8 is a new, very advanced product, and, whatever the specific cause turns out to be (crew interaction, the still-unchanged software is worse than previously thought, or something else), we have two very dire unintended consequences. Whatever it is, something has slipped by somebody. And to be clear, it may not be the same "something".

In like fashion, -- and here's my actual point -- it's quite possible that, as engines are either adapted to, or designed for, lower viscosity oils, we may see an example or two where the outcome in the field (presumably a bad outcome...) doesn't end up matching what the engineers predicted during development work.

In retrospect, I should have used a different example for comparison. About 300 people are dead, about half of them within the last forty-eight hours. Just too soon for good taste. . .

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by ekpolk
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by ekpolk

This isn't to suggest that engineering changes don't ever have unintended consequences (just look at what's happening to Boeing and their 737 at the moment.

Jumping to conclusions ... I'd say it's more along the lines of inadequate pilot training and skill, not a design problem.

Respectfully, it sounds like you're making just as much of a "jump" as I am -- obviously, the investigations of both mishaps are far from complete. But that's beside the point.


I should have probably said "Maybe jumping to conclusions". Read the post I made after that one. Yeah, it all needs way more investigation so only time will tell what's going on.

Originally Posted by ekpolk
In like fashion, -- and here's my actual point -- it's quite possible that, as engines are either adapted to, or designed for, lower viscosity oils, we may see an example or two where the outcome in the field (presumably a bad outcome...) doesn't end up matching what the engineers predicted during development work.


Absolutely ... as someone who's been in the testing field for decades you can never find everything in a test environment. In field use will always result in a few surprises along the way.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
LOL I'm waiting for the new Ow-0 environmental oil that is water soluble.


There is an ancient Assyrian prophecy that states the world will end when 0W0 comes.
Nobody knew what it meant until recently, the old theory was there would be a monster named Owo who would go all Godzilla on the planet.

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by 1978elcamino
Cruising youtube and came across some videos with discussion of oil companies developing 0w8 oil. Any truth to this?

Great for "racing"! Just read the bottle.

Guess there are applications where they are willing to risk engine failure on a short run for that tiny bit of extra power...think of the dragsters that can't quite hold it together for the entire 1000 feet or whatever they run now and give the crowd a big explosion for their viewing pleasure.
Maybe I shouldn't joke because my dad stopped taking me to Union Grove, WI on weekends because an engine exploded and killed some patrons.


Those Dragsters use a much higher viscosity oil. And they could stay together more reliably, if some of the regulations were relaxed.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by yowps3
Meanwhile at Hyundai/Kia they now recommend to use 5W40 instead of 30 on their T-GDI motors
At least the engineers have the upper hand over the marketing dept at Hyundai/Kia


Taking a "hit" in CAFE/EPA fuel mileage numbers is a LOT cheaper than replacing 1xx,xxx+ engines under "warranty"

Let's not forget, however, that this is an example of a case in which Hyundai/Kia was wrong at the outset. If oil viscosity is the real issue, H/K should have specified a 40wt oil to begin with, and there's no "hit" to be taken, since the cars never "deserved" the slightly higher rating they presumably achieved on lower vis oils. They were "trespassing" in territory they never should have entered in the first place.

By contrast, for cars like the Ford Fusion or the Honda Accord, there's no reason to take a "hit" on mileage, slight as it may be, since their engines are obviously doing fine in the long run on Xw-20 oils.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by 02SE
. . . And they could stay together more reliably, if some of the regulations were relaxed.
Yeah, but where's the fun in that?!?

You know that probably half the ticket buyers at drag strips are probably there hoping to see -- and hear -- a couple good engine grenadings. . .

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by ekpolk
Originally Posted by 02SE
. . . And they could stay together more reliably, if some of the regulations were relaxed.
Yeah, but where's the fun in that?!?

You know that probably half the ticket buyers at drag strips are probably there hoping to see -- and hear -- a couple good engine grenadings. . .


The first TF/D team I worked on, grenaded an engine at then Firebird Raceway, now Wild Horse Pass Raceway. A chunk of the blower hit a fan in the leg, up in the stands. He tried to sue the NHRA, and the team owner. Fortunately the disclaimer posted at the entrance, and on every ticket, won the day.

Just know that they are intentionally being slowed down, which makes them trickier to tune and thus more likely to grenade, due to a few handwringers that have a say in making the regulations.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

The Royal Purple 0w8 is the only one I've ever seen for sale anywhere, but even then, only online. And I don't think it actually meets the SAE J300 definition of a 0w8

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by 1978elcamino
Cruising youtube and came across some videos with discussion of oil companies developing 0w8 oil. Any truth to this?


Yes and it will cause widespread engine destruction unless a 0w40 is used. It's meant to implode engines right after the warranty to encourage built in obsolescence.

Sounds like we found our first volunteer to "test it out".

Don't forget there is lots of Camry's running around on 0w16 now when folks here think 20wt is too thin. So if I had an engine calling for 0w8 I would have no aversion to running it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by 1978elcamino
Cruising youtube and came across some videos with discussion of oil companies developing 0w8 oil. Any truth to this?


Yes and it will cause widespread engine destruction unless a 0w40 is used. It's meant to implode engines right after the warranty to encourage built in obsolescence.

Sounds like we found our first volunteer to "test it out".

Don't forget there is lots of Camry's running around on 0w16 now when folks here think 20wt is too thin. So if I had an engine calling for 0w8 I would have no aversion to running it.

Yes, but I wonder how many 0w-16 lubed Camrys crossed the 200K mile mark, and what the tear down results look like? In real world use, not mfg or oil company dyno testing. It could be the miracle engine/oil combo, I think the jury is still out on that though. I think there'll be tweaks and mods to the engine design before the engine/oil combo is perfected. I'll let the early adopters report here and read all about it before taking the plunge.

 

[StevieC]

Demarpaint, it's the same argument when 20wts were first introduced over a decade ago and the 20w50 crowd here was crying... The engineers know what they are doing and no one wants their product to implode just after the warranty, especially not Toyota which sells the vehicles they do based on their reputation of reliability.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Demarpaint, it's the same argument when 20wts were first introduced over a decade ago and the 20w50 crowd here was crying... The engineers know what they are doing and no one wants their product to implode just after the warranty, especially not Toyota which sells the vehicles they do based on their reputation of reliability.

Yes, and they sold a lot of vehicles on their reputation and reliability with frames that rotted out, and "sludge monsters." No one is perfect, not even Toyota. What I want to see is if they change the spec to 0W16, lol. And I want to see the results as time goes on, Bitog speculation is just that, speculation. Facts and real world data trumps all, and trust me they didn't do that on the dino or their testing process.

 

[PimTac]

Seems that someone's mind is set.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by StevieC
Demarpaint, it's the same argument when 20wts were first introduced over a decade ago and the 20w50 crowd here was crying... The engineers know what they are doing and no one wants their product to implode just after the warranty, especially not Toyota which sells the vehicles they do based on their reputation of reliability.

Yes, and they sold a lot of vehicles on their reputation and reliability with frames that rotted out, and "sludge monsters." No one is perfect, not even Toyota. What I want to see is if they change the spec to 0W16, lol. And I want to see the results as time goes on, Bitog speculation is just that, speculation. Facts and real world data trumps all, and trust me they didn't do that on the dino or their testing process.

Right and how many OE's are using 20wt's now? Where is all of those issues over the past decade?

 

[BLND1]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Seems that someone's mind is set.


Well, he's not wrong about the frames, or TOyota halo syndrome in general.

They won't get another dime from me, so they can put whatever oil they want in the engines and I won't care.

For almost 20 years Toyota willfully put subpar frames into its flagship trucks. It's not just that, there were two generations, and they knew about the issues while designing the second gens. They cheaped out and went back to the same supplier (Dana Corp).

I didn't listen to Ford when they back spec'd the 2v 4.6's to 5w-20 either. Mine has run for almost 20 years on 5w-30.

CAFE all the things.

 

[StevieC]

^^ Name any OE that hasn't had woes from time to time. It happens... That doesn't mean they shouldn't be held in high regard for reliability when a pattern doesn't exist past this group of bad frames.

 

[BLND1]

Originally Posted by StevieC
^^ Name any OE that hasn't had woes from time to time. It happens... That doesn't mean they shouldn't be held in high regard for reliability when a pattern doesn't exist past this group of bad frames.


It doesn't exist past this group of frames?

1. Delphi crap A/C blowers and wiring - expensive, widespread known issues.
2. Garbage door lock actuators requiring $400 per door or a complete disassembly of the unit to fix (if this happens to you let me know I'll save ya a bunch of money).
3. Head gasket failures - rampant in early year trucks.
4. Rotten engine mounts.
5. I've had 4 sets of leaf springs on my truck due to various recalls and failures.
6. T/C actuator failures - very common, along with garbage needle bearings and a penchant to eat wheel bearings like candy.

That is just second gen Tacoma's.

I could go on but hopefully you get the point.

Toyota is NOT this omniscient manufacturer producing only the finest of leather bound goods. They are a vehicle manufacturer riding on their reputational laurels while their real-world quality goes the way of mid-90's GM.

They don't call Toyota's "yesterday's truck at tomorrows prices" for nothin.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by StevieC
^^ Name any OE that hasn't had woes from time to time. It happens... That doesn't mean they shouldn't be held in high regard for reliability when a pattern doesn't exist past this group of bad frames.

Did you read what I said? "No one is perfect, not even Toyota." Furthermore many OE's changed specs on oil, after real world testing proved there were problems, up a grade, or down a grade take your pick. You knew that too. Is that going to be the case here? I have no clue, and either do you. So lets say maybe, maybe not. All I'm saying is "I'll" wait for real world proof from the early adaptors, not speculation. I'd rather not dive in head first.

 

[1978elcamino]

wow, this post went a lot further than I expected, thats ok because there are some good views on the subject.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by StevieC
^^ Name any OE that hasn't had woes from time to time. It happens... That doesn't mean they shouldn't be held in high regard for reliability when a pattern doesn't exist past this group of bad frames.

Did you read what I said? "No one is perfect, not even Toyota." Furthermore many OE's changed specs on oil, after real world testing proved there were problems, up a grade, or down a grade take your pick. You knew that too. Is that going to be the case here? I have no clue, and either do you. So lets say maybe, maybe not. All I'm saying is "I'll" wait for real world proof from the early adaptors, not speculation. I'd rather not dive in head first.

This wasn't for you.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by BLND1
Originally Posted by StevieC
^^ Name any OE that hasn't had woes from time to time. It happens... That doesn't mean they shouldn't be held in high regard for reliability when a pattern doesn't exist past this group of bad frames.


It doesn't exist past this group of frames?

1. Delphi crap A/C blowers and wiring - expensive, widespread known issues.
2. Garbage door lock actuators requiring $400 per door or a complete disassembly of the unit to fix (if this happens to you let me know I'll save ya a bunch of money).
3. Head gasket failures - rampant in early year trucks.
4. Rotten engine mounts.
5. I've had 4 sets of leaf springs on my truck due to various recalls and failures.
6. T/C actuator failures - very common, along with garbage needle bearings and a penchant to eat wheel bearings like candy.

That is just second gen Tacoma's.

I could go on but hopefully you get the point.

Toyota is NOT this omniscient manufacturer producing only the finest of leather bound goods. They are a vehicle manufacturer riding on their reputational laurels while their real-world quality goes the way of mid-90's GM.

They don't call Toyota's "yesterday's truck at tomorrows prices" for nothin.


3rd party made parts and design oversight. It happens. No OE is perfect and especially when you have tons of vehicles on the road using thousands and thousands of parts made all over the place in multiple plants. That's my point. But there is a reason people keep buying a brand and it's not because they are brainwashed it's because of the experiences they have had. The internet is really good at blowing things out of proportion so everyone fears the bad they hear and hardly anyone writes about the good in huge numbers. That's the problem. Toyota wouldn't have grown to where they are screwing customers. Sure they had problems along the way, all OE's do, but overall something lead to their sales expansion.

And I'm not saying Toyota is the be all end all, I know that first hand with my experience with my Highlander and its terrible 8-speed transmission I'm just talking about them because of their market share. It could be anyone. I haven't written off Toyota for my next vehicle, I just will make sure that it's not the 8-speed or that revisions have taken place to correct the issue with that newer transmission.

Look at the badmouthing that goes on here about Chrysler and lots of us here have great experiences with them. My dad's Caravan has over 300K KM and it has one of the supposedly bad head designs and the non-revised oil pump and it's running perfectly fine untouched.