changing your oil too often will harm your engine

[itguy08]

Originally Posted by Patman
DI engines that have these big carbon buildup issues aren't caused by frequent oil changes, they are caused by a poorly designed fuel system. When you see massive carbon buildup on some DI engines that have only 20,000 miles on them, you can't blame that on frequent oil changes. That's a design flaw.


This X100. I have no doubt that all 3 of our Ecoboosts have deposits and according to some, the 129k mile one should barely run due to deposits. Yet it starts up every time it needs to, performs great and has about the same MPG since new. Oil changes with them all have been at the IOLM or in the case of the truck, about every 5k. Ford probably has the most GDI/Turbo vehicles on the road since 2009 and we don't hear of buildups being a major drivability issue. The other manufacturers don't seem to have issues either now.

The only ones you really hear of where GDI deposits are an issue were early VW/Audi and BMW GDI engines. And even those with the addition of a catch can to supposedly catch this junk they still had issues over time.

GM, Hyundai/Kia, and Mazda don't seem to be having deposit issues and it seems that the Germans have the issue under control too.

 

[Purpfox]

If i followed my oem recommended change my oil would have a negative TBN and the viscosity below spec. I change based on Lab testing since i have the tools available to me.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2007-01-4133/

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3254390/1


There are piles of Toyota's that see 5K mile oci's thanks to their built in idiot lights and they seem to achieve great miles. I think even if this were true it wouldn't show up as a benefit until far out past junk points for most vehicles.


The "empty junk yards" defense ... it's so much better "proof" than technical SAE papers on wear.

I'll split the cost of the paper with you? Paypal ok?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by Purpfox
If i followed my oem recommended change my oil would have a negative TBN and the viscosity below spec. I change based on Lab testing since i have the tools available to me.

If I follow my OLM I'd be asking for trouble. The UOA was well worth it to me to continue to ignore blanket statements and my OLM.

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by pitzel



Are you sure this 20k instance wasn't some Corvette owner (Corvettes or other 'performance' cars often have very low miles put on them, I say "Corvette" because I know that's your fancy, but could easily be any other brand) who basically fed the engine a very frequent (ie: 1000 mile) diet of oil changes? I'd expect something like that to show up on an enthusiast-driven performance car, especially since there's lots of types who will go for a day at the track and immediately change their oil under some altruistic belief that 'racing' placed extreme 'damaging' stress on such. So 20k miles could very well be 20 x 1k mile OCI's. If that oil has a NOACK of 10% , that's an awful lot of virgin motor oil distilled and recirculated back into an intake with predictable issues in a DI scenario. Higher-displacement "Performance" car engines may be more susceptible due to their relatively lower intake mass flow density during most of their operating life. The intake "porting" that is valued by performance enthusiasts for performance engines (whether such is done after-market or in a factory design), results in lower mass flow density in such and may accelerate deposit formation.



The DI Corvettes aren't suffering from excessive carbon buildup. The 20k example I'm giving was from a Subaru WRX, someone on here posted a link the other day to some pictures of carbon buildup on those engines at extremely low mileage. From what I read on that site, their EGR system is not very good, and that's what they feel is the major contributor to the carbon buildup.

There are a lot of Corvette owners that do very low OCIs, in the neighborhood of 1-2k, and so far I haven't seen one person on the forums complain about excessive carbon buildup.

 

[B44]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
There are a few odd possibilities. I remember hearing almost an aside from a motor oil testing lab engineer that wear often went up in the first 500-1000 miles after an oil change, which was attributed to the ZDDP content not being activated. Apparently ZDDP needs to be oxidized via heat to do its thing. And I suppose it can't be pre-activated some way because that would just stick to the bottle.



Sorry to revive this thread. But i have to say that frquent OC actually can harm the engine due to the above reason.
Upto general service life, if engine has functioned well, theres no problem unless you always push hard.

The piston wear is in range of ~0.0x micrometer per service life OC, however, accumulation of such loss leads to increased noise and vibration,which easily can be notified in aged engine.
Its caused by the secondary motion of the piston. The clearance between the piston and incylinder wall is increased due to the wear.
Theres plenty of papers for piston skirt wear test. Aged lubrication always shows better protection result. Filter is not relative to this problem.
If you think your enigine of high milage with 5k km OC is still calm, i can guartee you that the syn. oil change of 10k km would be more calm with additional $ saving.


Anyway, it is your foot and driving behavior to decide the wear of the engine component not the fresh engine oil.
Engine oil does not always protect your engine. At the low speedand high load the lubrication is worked at the bounday lubrication. At TDC, where the velocity of piston is zero, theres high chance that the piston head hits the cylinder wall when the temperature is high.
This is the reason that the in cylinder wall damage is appeared from the TDC position in the aged engine.
Frquent hot start also acceleates aging as the above damage process also happens at the initial few cycles owing to the thinner film and decreased physical clearance by thermal expansion.


An exception is the engine with oil or water leakage.
If one find that, the engine oil must be changed after repair regardless of its life.
The leakage is fault of the 1 or 2 generation ago engine system from the current turbo charged di engine.
The most common fault is the piston ring leakage. The anaysis of the oil from such fault engine shows
very high amount of fuel components which dramatically decrease the viscosity.


If your engine have piston leakage issue or oil level decrease too soon compare to miles after oc, you should change oil frequently.
Otherwise, With proper care of fuel line system, around 10 k km OC with modern vag lubrication will not hurt anything.

even the oil analysis of the 24 k km service interval of the BMW vehicle has not showed the major issue.
The issue was caused by the oil leakage and DPF in case of the disel engines.
It is technical fault of the engine, not the engine oil.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by B44
Originally Posted by y_p_w
There are a few odd possibilities. I remember hearing almost an aside from a motor oil testing lab engineer that wear often went up in the first 500-1000 miles after an oil change, which was attributed to the ZDDP content not being activated. Apparently ZDDP needs to be oxidized via heat to do its thing. And I suppose it can't be pre-activated some way because that would just stick to the bottle.



Sorry to revive this thread. But i have to say that frquent OC actually can harm the engine due to the above reason.
Upto general service life, if engine has functioned well, theres no problem unless you always push hard.

Revive it all you want. It started almost 9 years ago.

But I went around looking for a sample of what this engineer discussed. His name is Edward Kollin and now he's doing his own thing with some aircraft oil additive. He used to be the head of the pre-ExxonMobil Exxon Advanced Fuel and Lubricants Group engine research lab where they tested fuels and lubes. His passion seemed to be piston aircraft oils, but obviously he knew a lot about car lubrication. And while I remember discussions on Usenet, he has posted here before.

Quote
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...effectiveness-vs-engine-temp#Post2474803
ZDDP undergoes oxidative activation even when the bulk oil temperature is low (hot pistons). Once activated it will form phosphate glass antiwear films where there is tribological energy present (cam and lifters).

There is a difference in the activation energy required depending on the structure of the alkyl groups.

Ed

It may not be my area of expertise, but it sounds like he was saying that ZDDP has to oxidize to the point where it will form a protective antiwear coating. In one of the older Usenet discussions I remember with him, he was saying that wear would actually go up after an oil change, which he attributed to this. I don't know how much that's changed since different antiwear additives are used today, but I thought that ZDDP is still being used, but in smaller quantities.

 

[piesled]

Wow, I'm not sure what to believe in this gem of a thread. I have changed my oil in my 11 corolla 1.8 motor just about every 5k for 7 years now. Using M1 cartridge filter and M1 0w20 regular synthetic. Heck, after reading this thread, I'm not sure what I have been doing is correct. I use the car for pizza delivery and really beat it up. Lots of stop and go, idling, etc. Run it basically 3 days a week or more 12 hours at a time. Manual says change every 10k but for extreme conditions (it doesn't get more extreme than what I do to the poor thing) change every 5k. I looked at using M1 EP 0w20 but it says right on the jug do not use in vehicles that are subject to long idling periods (or something along those lines) so I stick with the regular advanced fuel economy. Basically I rack up 20k a year and that's an oil change about every 3 months. I guess I have 2 questions. First why does M1 not recommend extended performance oil for extreme duty applications? Second, am I changing the oil to often?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by piesled
I looked at using M1 EP 0w20 but it says right on the jug do not use in vehicles that are subject to long idling periods (or something along those lines) ...


That's strange, wonder why they say that.

 

[piesled]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by piesled
I looked at using M1 EP 0w20 but it says right on the jug do not use in vehicles that are subject to long idling periods (or something along those lines) ...


That's strange, wonder why they say that.

I'm not sure, that's why I joined this site! To learn. If I had to Hazardous a guess I would say it has something to do with additives, or maybe the "boil off" that someone else mentioned in this thread. However, I just looked it up and right on the back of the jug it says "extended service is not recommended in severe service applications involving racing and commercial use, frequent towing or hauling, extremely dusty or dirty conditions, or excessive idling"

 

[OilUzer]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by piesled
I looked at using M1 EP 0w20 but it says right on the jug do not use in vehicles that are subject to long idling periods (or something along those lines) ...


That's strange, wonder why they say that.


I am wondering too. I have empty jugs of M1 EP 5Wx30 as well as 10Wx30 in the garage. Going to read the back. I usually only read the front. lol
Maybe it's a 0Wx20 thing!

Edit:
Both jugs of M1 EP 5/10W-30 on the back says:

"Extended service is not recommended in severe service applications involving racing and commercial use, frequent towing or hauling, extremely dusty or dirty conditions, or excessive idling"

 

[PimTac]

"Extended service is not recommended in severe service applications involving racing and commercial use, frequent towing or hauling, extremely dusty or dirty conditions, or excessive idling"



They are talking about the extended service, not the oil itself.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by piesled
Wow, I'm not sure what to believe in this gem of a thread. I have changed my oil in my 11 corolla 1.8 motor just about every 5k for 7 years now. Using M1 cartridge filter and M1 0w20 regular synthetic. Heck, after reading this thread, I'm not sure what I have been doing is correct. I use the car for pizza delivery and really beat it up. Lots of stop and go, idling, etc. Run it basically 3 days a week or more 12 hours at a time. Manual says change every 10k but for extreme conditions (it doesn't get more extreme than what I do to the poor thing) change every 5k. I looked at using M1 EP 0w20 but it says right on the jug do not use in vehicles that are subject to long idling periods (or something along those lines) so I stick with the regular advanced fuel economy. Basically I rack up 20k a year and that's an oil change about every 3 months. I guess I have 2 questions. First why does M1 not recommend extended performance oil for extreme duty applications? Second, am I changing the oil to often?


You are somewhat misinterpreting the statement from Mobil.

They state on the EP 0w-20 bottle, as I have one in front of me here:

Originally Posted by Mobil
Proven protection of critical engine parts from lubricant related failure for 25,000 kilometres or one year, whichever comes first*

*Excludes severe service applications involving: racing and commercial use; frequent towing or hauling; extremely dusty or dirty conditions; or excessive idling. If your vehicle is covered by a warranty, follow the vehicle's oil life sensor or the oil change interval recommended in your owner's manual


They are saying you cannot run the 25,000Km interval/one year change interval in a Severe Service application, thusly described. They are not saying don't use the product in those applications, but rather you won't be able to run the extended drain interval, that's all.

 

[OilUzer]

Originally Posted by PimTac
"Extended service is not recommended in severe service applications involving racing and commercial use, frequent towing or hauling, extremely dusty or dirty conditions, or excessive idling"



They are talking about the extended service, not the oil itself.


I see, that makes sense. I feel better now but I wasn't worried about it. my logic was, if I can't idle with M1 EP then how can I idle with ST or Amazon

LOL

Having said that, it's easy to confuse "Extended Service .." with Extended Performance" the oil ...

being knit picky but I think Exxon Mobil should reword it and get rid of the "Extended" in that paragraph. Maybe use prolonged or something like that!

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

https://www.sae.org/publications/te...Ck0rlC5O9eRwiX_Mt4Jc-b36vlN9xG827uQwSUw0

 

[Railrust]

I just change it every 5,000 miles and call it a day. In years past my engine started to "act funny" after 5,000 miles (it would start consuming oil more, a lot more after 5,000 miles as if it was a totally different engine). I figure the oil has already surpassed the 3,000 mile threshold, so the theory of your greatest protection occurs after that point is happening through almost half the oil change (I guess if I bumped it up to 6,000 mikes it'd be half), but like I said after 5,000 miles, for whatever reason I tend to have to add more and more oil anyway.

I ran into a guy once in another forum - smart guy I thought - he swore that I was doing harm because I wasn't allowing the oil and filter to reach their "sweet spot" because I was changing it too early. That after 5,000 miles the filter performed better...that after 5,000 miles the additives in the oil are no longer causing wear to your engine. Then I asked the guy how far he extended his oil changes out to, because I was curious. He said, 5,000 miles. He only drove his car 5,000 miles a year, so he changed it at that point due to the time interval aspect of it. I thought...well isn't that something, the guy that tells everyone what to do doesn't even drive his car?? Here we're all putting 30,000-40,000 miles on our daily drivers and this guy does nothing but wash and wax his, as it sits in his garage 5 days a week (we all had the same car, it was a car forum).

So meanwhile a few years down the road - and me taking his advice and trying to push my car to 7,000-9,000 mile oil changes - a thread pops up on "excessive oil consumption". Well we're all experiencing it...I mean this thread goes on for 15 pages. This guy is nowhere to be found. He leaves the group. Bottom line...do what you think is right, be very hesitant of what you read online from a guy who "knows a lot about cars", but doesn't drive or work on them.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by vq40
https://www.sae.org/publications/te...Ck0rlC5O9eRwiX_Mt4Jc-b36vlN9xG827uQwSUw0


That SAE paper has nothing to do with the thread title.

It's about tribofilm formation on metal surfaces, using previously used oil, most of which was past it's condemnation limit with respect to TBN/TAN, or thickening.

Used oil forms tribofilms quicker and better...it's been pretty standard knowledge forever, as in order to form tribofilms, the virgin additives have to break down some.

Doesn't mean that new oil eliminates the tribofilm (the argument against changing your oil), or that extended oil drains reduce wear.

If you believe that it does, I can offer you some "preconditioned oil" to use as an additive., in litre bottles for $20/L, you pay for the shipping

 

[bbhero]

I say bump that price up a bit to say $30 per liter... We have one of the oil additives that is for sale for $25.99 for less than a liter.

 

[Shannow]

OK $30/L, then buy 4 get one free...that's an entire preconditioned oil change (plus shipping and handling of course)

Pretty sure I could get a decent seal on the bottles with hot glue.

 

[bbhero]

Heck yeah!!

I will be your North American sales associate

Hope you and your family are doing good. Always good to see you on here.