Ford replacing F150 5.0's due to oil consumption

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Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by itguy08
We don't know what the issue is - could be rings, piston clearance, liner, any # of issues. It's probably cheaper for the mfg to ship a long block than have a tech replace pistons, rings, etc to maybe fix the issue. They can replace the long block and be done with it and send it to the factory where it can be machined and put back together properly.

PWTA liners are not new - they have been used on the GT-R, GT350, and other high performance vehicles. It's not new but most likely this is one of the few high volume applications. We don't know if it's a lining issue or any one of the other things that cause oil consumption.

It's interesting reading the responses and general disdain for "new and different" here. For the most part new works well. I "took that gamble" 3 times and it's worked out well. 2010 Taurus SHO (new Ecoboost 3.5 and 6F55 @ 130k runs great with minimal maintenance), 2011 F150 with the EB 3.5 (94k and runs great, only issue was the condensation and it does like plugs every 40k), and 2018 Mustang GT, while too early to tell (7500 mi) it should be fine as well. Some designs have issues but as a whole it's not the dire stuff many around here paint it as.


Lets see "new and different", first US liner less aluminum block in the Chevy Vega ...


That was quite a different design and process than the plasma spray liner used in the Ford Coyote. The Vega actually had the aluminum impregnated with high levels of silicon ... no actual physical liner layer was added to the top surface of the aluminum like in the Coyote.
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by advocate
But now at 1 quart per 3000 miles they will replace the long block.


I'm really surprised it isn't the usual "1 qt or more per 1000 mile" standard that a lot of car companies use.

Ford will probably be changing out quite a few long blocks if going by the 1 qt per 3000 miles spec.


Exactly what I said, and you're right they'll be replacing a ton of them. I wonder if they're going to tweak those numbers.
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by itguy08
We don't know what the issue is - could be rings, piston clearance, liner, any # of issues. It's probably cheaper for the mfg to ship a long block than have a tech replace pistons, rings, etc to maybe fix the issue. They can replace the long block and be done with it and send it to the factory where it can be machined and put back together properly.

PWTA liners are not new - they have been used on the GT-R, GT350, and other high performance vehicles. It's not new but most likely this is one of the few high volume applications. We don't know if it's a lining issue or any one of the other things that cause oil consumption.

It's interesting reading the responses and general disdain for "new and different" here. For the most part new works well. I "took that gamble" 3 times and it's worked out well. 2010 Taurus SHO (new Ecoboost 3.5 and 6F55 @ 130k runs great with minimal maintenance), 2011 F150 with the EB 3.5 (94k and runs great, only issue was the condensation and it does like plugs every 40k), and 2018 Mustang GT, while too early to tell (7500 mi) it should be fine as well. Some designs have issues but as a whole it's not the dire stuff many around here paint it as.


Lets see "new and different", first US liner less aluminum block in the Chevy Vega ...


That was quite a different design and process than the plasma spray liner used in the Ford Coyote. The Vega actually had the aluminum impregnated with high levels of silicon ... no actual physical liner layer was added to the top surface of the aluminum like in the Coyote.


I said first US liner less aluminum block, I am quite aware how the cylinders were on a Vega we changed enough of them for torn up walls.

Edit: Guess who did the rebuilds for Chevy? Ford Parts Rebuilders. They installed iron liners and that cured that issue.
It didn't help much with the cast iron heads cracking though,
 
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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
That was quite a different design and process than the plasma spray liner used in the Ford Coyote. The Vega actually had the aluminum impregnated with high levels of silicon ... no actual physical liner layer was added to the top surface of the aluminum like in the Coyote.


PTWA has been used in numerous industries to provide a finished surface for years. It's been used in turbines and other areas where a precision wear surface is needed.

Not sure who else is using it as Ford may well be the only one with this volume but it's usage is or will be growing and is rebuildable:
PTWA Explained
PTWA for rebuilds

We don't know if that is even the reason for the oil consumption.
 
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To add to this I checked my personal truck today (we have two other 2018 5.0's in the family) and my oil is right up to the top after about 1100 miles on this interval. I'm using Pennzoil Platinum Pure Plus 5w-30 though.
 
Originally Posted by itguy08
PTWA has been used in numerous industries to provide a finished surface for years. It's been used in turbines and other areas where a precision wear surface is needed.

Not sure who else is using it as Ford may well be the only one with this volume but it's usage is or will be growing and is rebuildable:
PTWA Explained
PTWA for rebuilds

We don't know if that is even the reason for the oil consumption.


Lots of 2018+ Mustang guys have reported scored cylinders, and some with high rates of oil usage and metal in the oil and in the oil filter. Obviously not normal engine behavior. Unknown if it's related to a botched PTWA process or QA.
 
Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by itguy08
We don't know what the issue is - could be rings, piston clearance, liner, any # of issues. It's probably cheaper for the mfg to ship a long block than have a tech replace pistons, rings, etc to maybe fix the issue. They can replace the long block and be done with it and send it to the factory where it can be machined and put back together properly.

PWTA liners are not new - they have been used on the GT-R, GT350, and other high performance vehicles. It's not new but most likely this is one of the few high volume applications. We don't know if it's a lining issue or any one of the other things that cause oil consumption.

It's interesting reading the responses and general disdain for "new and different" here. For the most part new works well. I "took that gamble" 3 times and it's worked out well. 2010 Taurus SHO (new Ecoboost 3.5 and 6F55 @ 130k runs great with minimal maintenance), 2011 F150 with the EB 3.5 (94k and runs great, only issue was the condensation and it does like plugs every 40k), and 2018 Mustang GT, while too early to tell (7500 mi) it should be fine as well. Some designs have issues but as a whole it's not the dire stuff many around here paint it as.

Lets see "new and different", first US liner less aluminum block in the Chevy Vega ...


That was quite a different design and process than the plasma spray liner used in the Ford Coyote. The Vega actually had the aluminum impregnated with high levels of silicon ... no actual physical liner layer was added to the top surface of the aluminum like in the Coyote.

I said first US liner less aluminum block, I am quite aware how the cylinders were on a Vega we changed enough of them for torn up walls.


Just adding info to distinguish the difference.
 
Interesting info. Too bad; the 5.0L was such as stellar unit for the last several years. Hope they get this right in the new gen engine.

I've read of PTWA and find it interesting. But one thing that occurs to me is that I'm not confident I understand how it's "finished" to the right degree of smooth/rough (as in surface finish). Too rough and it would eat at the rings. Too smooth and it will not seal well (because oil actually needs small crevices and undulations at the surface to use for surface adhesion to the cyl walls ... ala cross-hatching).

When I worked at Ford many years ago at their steering systems plant, we bought some new Turmat (German) machines that were so good at machining a smooth bore than we ended up with internal leaks in the rack-pinion gear housings. The bores were so freakishly smooth that the hydraulic fluid would not adhere to the bore wall and so the PTFE piston ring would not seal well. We actually had to alter the tooling so that there would be some amount of roughness (measured via profilometer). Is it possible that the PTWA on these suspect 5.0L engines is so smooth that they are not always getting good oil adhesion on the cyl wall? Hence the oil is pushed out the PCV, into the intake and then burned? (also, would this not lead to long term issues with the CATs ????)

Here's the link others provided:
https://www.autocraftds.com/autocraft-explains-ptwa/
Here's a quote ...
"The PTWA/RSW process results in improved efficiency of the engine due to the defined porosity coating providing additional retention in oil volume, especially in the highly loaded areas of top and bottom dead centres. "
Well, apparently only when it's applied correctly ....
The evidence suggests otherwise on some of the 5.0L engines.


The point is that cyl walls have to be the Goldilocks of machining results. They have to be just right. Not too hard; not too soft. Not too rough; not too smooth. After decades of doing iron liners and/or iron blocks, the process was very robust. Sounds like the PTWA in mass production quality control isn't quite there yet. If you get a good one, it's probably good for life. If you get a bad one, well it's time for replacement, and you hope you get a good one on the second time around.


.
 
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Thanks for sharing this. Too bad, I always considered the Ford 5.0l bulletproof? I change the oil (5W20) on my 2014 every 7500 miles with whatever synthetic oil is on sale and never needed to add oil between changes...still at or near the full mark.
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Lots of 2018+ Mustang guys have reported scored cylinders, and some with high rates of oil usage and metal in the oil and in the oil filter. Obviously not normal engine behavior. Unknown if it's related to a botched PTWA process or QA.


Yeah I'm watching that too as I own one. So far one quart in 7500 miles on mine, at around 4k miles.

Although I'd not call there "Lots" of engine replacements. It seems to be a few, maybe 10 or so on the Mustang boards that got engine replacements. Certainly more than normal but with sales of 100k a year, that's what .01%? The interesting thing is that none of these TSBs apply to the Mustang which is very close to the F150's engine. There sure are a lot of theories going around about what's causing it. One thing's for sure the new 5.0 seems to be noisier than the previous units. Most likely because of the addition of the Direct Injection.

Truth is we'll probably never know what the issue is - bores, rings, pistons, etc. Interesting that Ford is having them replace the long block vs the short block - the Mustang guys were getting short block replacements.
 
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Originally Posted by itguy08
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
That was quite a different design and process than the plasma spray liner used in the Ford Coyote. The Vega actually had the aluminum impregnated with high levels of silicon ... no actual physical liner layer was added to the top surface of the aluminum like in the Coyote.


PTWA has been used in numerous industries to provide a finished surface for years. It's been used in turbines and other areas where a precision wear surface is needed.

Not sure who else is using it as Ford may well be the only one with this volume but it's usage is or will be growing and is rebuildable:
PTWA Explained
PTWA for rebuilds

We don't know if that is even the reason for the oil consumption.


BMW is using the technology in their latest engines.
 
It is interesting that it is 1 quart every 3000 miles. I know it has been noted in this thread that other manufactures call that normal. I know Honda told my neighbor that for their Civic.

Maybe they think if you have one that does that now is a symptom of something worse down the road and they are fixing it for that reason?

The only car I own the ever requires make up oil is the WS6 and that is maybe a 1/2 quart every 4000 to 5000 miles.

I know the guy here in my office has 2013 Camry with 60,000ish miles and he adds a quart ever 4000ish. I didn't think that was bad.
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by itguy08
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
That was quite a different design and process than the plasma spray liner used in the Ford Coyote. The Vega actually had the aluminum impregnated with high levels of silicon ... no actual physical liner layer was added to the top surface of the aluminum like in the Coyote.


PTWA has been used in numerous industries to provide a finished surface for years. It's been used in turbines and other areas where a precision wear surface is needed.

Not sure who else is using it as Ford may well be the only one with this volume but it's usage is or will be growing and is rebuildable:
PTWA Explained
PTWA for rebuilds

We don't know if that is even the reason for the oil consumption.


BMW is using the technology in their latest engines.


I hope that isn't a recommendation for the technique, shall we talk about nikasil bores they should never had exported.
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted by Donald
Toyota took the guts off severely rusted truck frames and put the guts onto new truck frames. How did that go?

(I am thinking that Toyota forced Dana to pay for that. Just a hunch. I think if Toyota had to pay for it they would have exchanged the old to a new truck at a reduced cost.)

I don't think I've heard of many complaints. You know, squeaks rattles etc. It seems like they got it down to a science (and they have gotten plenty of practice!). My guess is they know what they can cut through and replace so as to save on shop time, even if it's not in the procedure.

*

Seems odd, since so many OEM's are ok with 1k/qt. Or is that just the imports that are ok with that level of consumption?

Not a Ford fan but good for them. Too many times OEM's stand too far behind their products.
 
Originally Posted by supton
Seems odd, since so many OEM's are ok with 1k/qt. Or is that just the imports that are ok with that level of consumption?

Not a Ford fan but good for them. Too many times OEM's stand too far behind their products.


Part of the problem, based on what I have seen with a lot of engine failures lately is from customers running them out of oil. All of the newer Fords have a 10k OCI and the F-150s in question hold 7.7qts of oil. Very rarely do any of the owners check oil level and only go by the OLM.
 
I'm surprised of 2 things:
1. Nobody has put in an oil level sensor yet that tells you when to add oil. We have them for washer fluid, why not oil?
2. Ford didn't put the 10qt Mustang pan on the F150.
 
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Originally Posted by itguy08
I'm surprised of 2 things:
1. Nobody has put in an oil level sensor yet that tells you when to add oil. ...


I had a 1992 Ford Ranger with a V6 that would light up the oil light every time the oil was 3/4 qt low. I have missed that (presumable) feature on every vehicle since.
 
This topic is getting about as much play as on the F150Forum. As I own an affected vehicle I am certainly on watch. My take is that Ford is being very lenient on their usage parameters. Either they have seen a correlation between usage and ultimate failure or are highly confident in the engine design. I hope it is the latter.
 
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