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Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Patman] #5025999 02/27/19 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Patman
This is what I don't understand. Blackstone makes a ton of money, being as it's probably the number one oil analysis lab around, so why don't they use the proper method for testing for fuel dilution??


Even more confusing is that we can reach a better conclusion by looking at several pieces of paper than they can with their far greater resources.

Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Terryd91] #5026199 02/28/19 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Terryd91

I may do two sample next time for kicks as im interested in what the true fuel % is. Need to research testing alternatives eventually i guess.


Good idea. Lots of fuel in there, maybe more than the 3-4% number (could be high enough to be causing the high iron). GC is the way to go these days.


2014 F250 6.7L PSD
2006 Sequoia 4.7L
2005 E500 5.0L
2018 Jeep Rubicon, Pentastar 3.6L
Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: doyall] #5026200 02/28/19 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by doyall
Originally Posted by Patman
This is what I don't understand. Blackstone makes a ton of money, being as it's probably the number one oil analysis lab around, so why don't they use the proper method for testing for fuel dilution??


Even more confusing is that we can reach a better conclusion by looking at several pieces of paper than they can with their far greater resources.


For sure. Blackstone shouldn't even provide a fuel number. Maybe they want low fuel numbers, so their customers don't realize they have fuel dilutuon issues and go to a real lab with GC? Sad that Blackstone misleads customers into a false sense of security.

Last edited by claluja; 02/28/19 03:50 AM.

2014 F250 6.7L PSD
2006 Sequoia 4.7L
2005 E500 5.0L
2018 Jeep Rubicon, Pentastar 3.6L
Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Terryd91] #5026667 02/28/19 03:34 PM
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I fully expect a high fuel percentage with this engine. Yea its dual injected with port and DI but it doesn't take much for it to roll into DI and im not burning it off with my drive pattern. should be better next time, it's getting more long trips and once we start camping it will have plenty of time at high temps to evaporate some of that fuel out.


2017 F150 3.5l Ecoboost.
Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Terryd91] #5027261 03/01/19 05:54 AM
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There shouldn't be any spark knock with 87, but spark knock with 93 means that something is wrong. Is it tuned or modded in some way?


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Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Terryd91] #5027739 03/01/19 01:49 PM
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How many miles would the OLM have let the oil go? Or did you follow it?


God Bless Our Troops

Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Terryd91] #5028152 03/01/19 06:59 PM
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CT8 Offline
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What exactly do you mean by spark knocking? This is a problem that will not be fixed by any magic oil or by any UOA lab. Go see the dealer as if there is knocking of any kind on the new engine you have a serious problem that wasting time on bitog expecting explanations for the issue.

Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Patman] #5028194 03/01/19 08:01 PM
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CT8 Offline
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Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by doyall
I'm thinking more like 3% - 4% fuel dilution.


This is what I don't understand. Blackstone makes a ton of money, being as it's probably the number one oil analysis lab around, so why don't they use the proper method for testing for fuel dilution??

Why should they upgrade if they are making the $$$ with out the up to date tests?

Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Terryd91] #5028197 03/01/19 08:04 PM
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double click.

Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Terryd91] #5028225 03/01/19 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Terryd91
Originally Posted by PimTac
The oil will have no effect on spark knock. That is something that should be looked into.



LSPI is what trying to rule out as its occuring at low rpm under load. Obviously not sever as it hasn't windowed the block or had any failures yet but it's disheartening to hear. PP should help prevent LSPI issues but you never know. The actual knock i hear at ide i believe is a VCT issue, but the dealer refuse to look at it because they claim its the tappet on the HPFP. Oddly my mileage goes up on fresh oil, last 3 changes. I think as the oil thins out from shearing and fuel dilution its leaking past the VCT actuators and tanking the engines efficiency taking the mileage with it. Looking at $400 and a weekend of tearing the valve covers off and see if that resolves it.


Originally Posted by addyguy
At 15k, engine should be done break-in, I'd be disappointed in these results.

Name escapes me now, but the Castrol oil with 'intelligent clinging molecules' seems to work well here (startup? Magnatec?)

Seen some good results with it in these engines.


Yeah magnatech, I have that and some of the RGT on a price watch to snatch some up cheap.





You should not be having problems on a brand new engine. Has a tech listened to it?

Some GDI engines are louder than others. I haven’t listened to a Ecoboost so I cannot compare.


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Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Terryd91] #5031244 03/04/19 12:12 PM
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Env1ous Offline
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Originally Posted by Terryd91

I used Castrol EDGE Extended on this fill, honestly because it was the only thing on sale and i wanted to try something different due to a large amount of spark knock (on 93) and noise at the front of the engine.


Hey Terry,
What do you mean spark knock? How are you monitoring? is this global knock?

Let me know.

Thanks!

To elaborate more. On the copperhead ECU it uses knock to adjust timing. When there is POSITIVE (+) knock it is pulling timing due to non satisfactory conditions. A lot of parameters can cause this. Intake air temp after the intercooler, octane, load, etc.
and this is completely normally in part throttle driving. My knock on my ecoboost is anywhere from -4 to +3 on a normal drive. I get more positive knock when I am driving slow in winter. You can also get more positive knock with winter gas. Ecoboosts are very sensitive to gas. Also look at your OAR (octane adjust ratio) our ecoboost read gas quality (assumed) and will adjust OAR to how good the gas is based off knock. the closer to -1 it is the better the gas. If it is +1 it is awful gas and it will pull more timing to adjust accordingly.

IF you are seeing NEGATIVE (-) knock that is a good thing. The ECU is seeing favorable conditions and it is adding timing to your truck to give you more power based on conditions it is seeing.

Are you running a tune or are you stock? Stock the knock is all over the place. The most I saw was +8 and -6 on a single drive lol. Now if you are going WOT (wide open throttle) You do not want to see any + knock at all and that can cause issues.

The main consensus is to change plugs around 20k miles. As the ecoboosts do like their plugs and are finicky about the gap. Most people tuned or not prefer a gap of .028-.030 for their plugs and only use motocraft plugs.

Another thing is the HPFP and the DI are noisey. They have a sound that sounds like lifters but it is just the injector pulse from the DI aspect of the engine. What sound are you hearing?

Last edited by Env1ous; 03/04/19 12:23 PM. Reason: Added info
Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Env1ous] #5090787 04/29/19 03:58 PM
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Terryd91 Offline OP
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sorry, been overwhelmed with work and forgot to check back.

Originally Posted by CT8
What exactly do you mean by spark knocking? This is a problem that will not be fixed by any magic oil or by any UOA lab. Go see the dealer as if there is knocking of any kind on the new engine you have a serious problem that wasting time on bitog expecting explanations for the issue.


Never asked for an explanation, i have already stated the likely cause. High fuel dilution can lead to LSPI, which is not common with the 3.5 but can happen i would guess.



Originally Posted by addyguy


You should not be having problems on a brand new engine. Has a tech listened to it?

Some GDI engines are louder than others. I haven’t listened to a Ecoboost so I cannot compare.


Ford couldn't care less, there is no hole in the block and its not throwing a code so there is nothing wrong with it in fords eyes.

Originally Posted by Env1ous



Hey Terry,
What do you mean spark knock? How are you monitoring? is this global knock?

Let me know.

Thanks!

To elaborate more. On the copperhead ECU it uses knock to adjust timing. When there is POSITIVE (+) knock it is pulling timing due to non satisfactory conditions. A lot of parameters can cause this. Intake air temp after the intercooler, octane, load, etc.
and this is completely normally in part throttle driving. My knock on my ecoboost is anywhere from -4 to +3 on a normal drive. I get more positive knock when I am driving slow in winter. You can also get more positive knock with winter gas. Ecoboosts are very sensitive to gas. Also look at your OAR (octane adjust ratio) our ecoboost read gas quality (assumed) and will adjust OAR to how good the gas is based off knock. the closer to -1 it is the better the gas. If it is +1 it is awful gas and it will pull more timing to adjust accordingly.

IF you are seeing NEGATIVE (-) knock that is a good thing. The ECU is seeing favorable conditions and it is adding timing to your truck to give you more power based on conditions it is seeing.

Are you running a tune or are you stock? Stock the knock is all over the place. The most I saw was +8 and -6 on a single drive lol. Now if you are going WOT (wide open throttle) You do not want to see any + knock at all and that can cause issues.

The main consensus is to change plugs around 20k miles. As the ecoboosts do like their plugs and are finicky about the gap. Most people tuned or not prefer a gap of .028-.030 for their plugs and only use motocraft plugs.

Another thing is the HPFP and the DI are noisey. They have a sound that sounds like lifters but it is just the injector pulse from the DI aspect of the engine. What sound are you hearing?


Audible knock at low engine speeds and low to medium load. At the time it started happening i had a LOR of -1, we are still getting rid of the craptastic winter blend so im only back to .52+ from +1 but it does it either way. I have the individual knock sensors, bank sensors and global KR set up along with LOR, AAT, CACT, IAT, and the VCT actual vs demand for both cams and both banks. I see a lot of positive KR, The bank sensors get up towards 1k when i can hear it, cruise in the 150's.

The idle knock sounds like a flat lifter but softer... hard to explain. stethoscope is loudest at the front top of the head, probing the HPFP produces a different knock. I wouldn't care if it did it since mile 11 when i picked it up, but it started way after.

Doesn't really matter unless im going to fix it myself, dealer said not to bring it back unless its throwing codes or rods. I have notices the passenger side bank has trouble keeping close to the demand angle on the exhaust cam. I have a set of vct acuators but have been too busy with work to rip the valve cover off and swap them.

Last edited by Terryd91; 04/29/19 03:58 PM.

2017 F150 3.5l Ecoboost.
Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Terryd91] #5128744 06/08/19 06:32 PM
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Terry: “dealer said not to bring it back unless its throwing codes or rods.” I’ve had similar reaction from dealers on my EB3.5. 2 ways to interpret:
1) it’s all in our heads (no pun intended). The motor will keep on keepin on despite what our oil analyses and stethoscopes say (actually, I don’t have a stethoscope).
2) the dealer WANTS the engine to fail, preferably at 61,000. Regardless of when, a pound of cure is worth way more to them than an ounce of prevention.

I’ve now developed the attitude (in addition to not trusting dealers) that Pennzoil is bad oil for EcoBoosts with fuel dilution. I have 4-5%, based on 2 Amsoil/Polaris UOAs, with certain other “warning signs.” The last PDS’s I saw had Platinum & Ultra Plat 100 C viscosity in low 10’s, but VOA’s show them to be in low to mid 9’s (new!). UOA’s have it dipping into the mid-to-low 8’s. Including mine: 8.2 (after 6k), and now 8.4 after only 900 miles. Maybe this doesn’t matter, and lubricity and other protections are outstanding. But before I go on my summer trip, I’m putting something much thicker in. And QSUD viscosity, while it starts out high, doesn’t end high in the Ford UOAs I saw. So it makes you wonder if any Shell products can stand up to the Ecoboost torture chamber. Rotella MV or GT might. Of course, I wish the dealer would help find the Root cause of the fuel diluting, but if no codes, no problem in their minds. Who is Polaris to tell them they have a problem. So off I go to add 7-8000 miles of torture to the engine with the root cause undiagnosed.

Some will say you need a long UOA trend, but IMHO, a “trend” of 2 bad data points is cause enough to change something. That said, I don’t see how the oil causes the fuel dilution, but evidently some can’t handle it without breaking way down. It probably needs to be either Rotella or go out of spec (0w40, 5w40) and hope there is no warranty disqualification. I’m not sure what the virgin viscosity of the latest Magnatec is. I did see a Castrol Edge UOA in a EB that did not impress me, and even std 5w30 M1 didn’t pass with flying colors.

Reading your comments, you know more than I ever will, and have mechanical capabilities beyond mine, so I realize I have to offer my $0.02 at a 100% discount. But from what I’ve seen, my engine won’t make it to 150k unless I take some corrective action.


15 Ford Transit 250 3.5EB Turbo PPPUP 5w30
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Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Terryd91] #5128984 06/09/19 01:38 AM
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Castrol Magnetic seems to work best in the 3.5


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95 Accord - 386k. Mobil 2 RIP
Re: 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 5.7k mi [Re: Gasbuggy] #5134558 06/15/19 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Gasbuggy
Castrol Magnetic seems to work best in the 3.5


There s some evidence to support this statement for “older” Magnatec, but not sure about the latest SN+. Can you point me to a UOA of SN+ Magnatec in a Ecoboost (preferably 3.5)...preferably Polaris or some other that actually measures fuel dilution, but i’ll just extrapolate what the real fuel damage is (to best of my LIMITED ability) if Blackstone. (Blackstone does some things right, but evidently not fuel dilution.


15 Ford Transit 250 3.5EB Turbo PPPUP 5w30
07 Subaru OBXT 2.5 Turbo Castrol Euro 0w30
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