Tomorrow I will do some highway driving to determine if there is any concerns or issues the balancing did not address. The shop has a 30 day replacement policy which expires next week and Continental has a satisfaction trial is for 60 days. I need more road time at this point.
Vibration feeling after new tires installed?
- Thread starter MONKEYMAN
- Start date
- Status
Good news. Tires were OK after out of balance issue was corrected. These are LLR tires. Computer was showing over 52 mpg at one point. The downside is you feel irregularities of the road. I am OK with that. Good traction and handling so no complaints now. Only concern is if the shop will balance them right from now on.
Sort of makes you wonder what was wrong. My money is on calibration of the balance machine - and I'll bet they had quite a few complaints, which is what prompted them to do a calibration.
Side note: I've never understood why so many tire shops don't have a schedule of maintenance to do those things that need to be done periodically. Like draining the air tank and calibrating the balance machines - that sort of thing. It's the sort of thing that can be done during idle time - like when the shop first opens.
Side note: I've never understood why so many tire shops don't have a schedule of maintenance to do those things that need to be done periodically. Like draining the air tank and calibrating the balance machines - that sort of thing. It's the sort of thing that can be done during idle time - like when the shop first opens.
CapriRacer, all I know is the counter person that assisted me was the first week on job. It looked like low seniority people working New Years Eve. Also when I went in for re-balance the one counter person was kinda miffed I came in early in the morning. They were missing a shuttle driver so were moving staff around to cover stuff. Most of the time they did not have problems balancing in the past. May be more of Holiday schedule and lack of staffing problem.
I think the calibration has more to do with weight placement. If the machine shows all zero's, it's balanced. Problem is they probably just give it one spin, and never reset the balancer from the previous set of tires, and that would show up on the final check spin. When busy, or lazy it would be pretty easy to give it one spin, hammer on the weights and call it good without running the check spin saving even more time. When I'm putting tape weights on a wheel, sometimes I have to spin it 10 times, tweaking the weights as I go until they are zeroed out. I can spend more time balancing one tire than some shops do on the whole 4 tire job.
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I thought I could get used to the still busy feeling I was getting after tires were balanced. It was better but I found highway driving intense and I could feel every imperfection on road. I contacted Continental and explained my experience. RT43's were recommended and installed on Tuesday. I feel I have my car back. The RT43's are more forgiving. The pleasure factor is returning. I came out 2 cents ahead. I gave the shop my 2 cents.
I have not had time to get on the freeway so interested to see the difference in how it drives. Not that it matters but I have 3 tires with same manufacturing date and one that is a little older. The PureContacts were made in Mexico. This time I got three made in France and one USA. A Korean car built in Alabama with 3 French tires. What could go wrong?
I learned my lesson to not use this shop in the future. I will return pronto this time if something is not right. I sincerely thank everyone that contributed. It made a difference.
I have not had time to get on the freeway so interested to see the difference in how it drives. Not that it matters but I have 3 tires with same manufacturing date and one that is a little older. The PureContacts were made in Mexico. This time I got three made in France and one USA. A Korean car built in Alabama with 3 French tires. What could go wrong?
I learned my lesson to not use this shop in the future. I will return pronto this time if something is not right. I sincerely thank everyone that contributed. It made a difference.
Remember this one piece of info ... and you will understand why customers get angry, tech's get frustrated and shop owners pull their hair out with repeat vibration issues !
" Balanced ... " does not always equal "smooth ... " And a vibration is not always a symptom of an out of balance condition.
Road force variation causes most vibration issues, not poor balancing. Road force variation is like a mattress with a lump in it ... every time you roll over the lump, you feel it. Your tire, when it is manufactured, has a very small lump as a by-product of the way it is put together. And every time the tire rolls over that "lump ... " , there is the possibility that it can be felt in the car. And, unless a shop has an extremely expensive road force balancing machine, and the time, patience and training to use it properly ( it takes roughly 4X as long to properly road force balance a tire, and even shops that have the machine typically only road force balance on come-backs ... ), then they have NO IDEA !!! if a vibration is balance or road force generated. All they know is that you the customer are not happy, and they get to try again, for free. And they hate that ... !
You can balance a severely bent wheel / tire, with enough weight. It will spin out to 0.0's , and be perfectly balanced ... but it will definitely not drive smooth. And you can take it back a second, or third or whatever time, and it will again be balanced, but not run smooth ... EVER.
Your wheel / tire assembly is like that bent wheel ... every wheel, if measured precisely enough, is out of round. And every tire, again, if precisely measured, has a low/high, or more likely, a stiff spot (that "lump " we mentioned earlier ... ) What you want to avoid is putting the high/stiff spot on the tire at the high point on the wheel. You want to put the high/stiff part of the tire at the low point of the wheel to cancel out the two imperfections to the greatest degree possible. How do you do that ?
Well, car makers want their new car to be as smooth as possible. So they measure every wheel, discard / return those that don't meet their specs, and, very importantly, mark the low spot on the wheel before ever mounting a tire. The low spot is marked with a sticker, a paint mark or even a dimple in the wheel. Same with tires. All are measured, and those that meet the oem specs (usually much stricter than aftermarket tires ) are again marked, typically with a red dot showing the high / stiff spot on the tire. When the tires are mounted on the wheels, they match the high / stiff spot of the tire to the low spot marked on the wheel, and often re-test the wheel / tire assembly to triple check for smooth operation.
And that is the problem when you dismount your factory tires, and get new tires mounted. You don't get that absolute focus on smoothness that the car maker obsessed about, for a number of reasons. First, if your wheels are not permanently marked at the low spot, then you have lost this key piece of info going forward. There is no way to optimize the wheel / tire placement. Second, your replacement tires may not be as round / uniform as the original equipment tires, and may not be marked the same way. Third, the tech mounting and balancing the tires may not understand / not been trained / not care about any of this info. So random luck can play a factor.
My simple advice for a vibration ( note I didn't say "balance ... " ) issue is this. First, see if you can isolate the problem wheel / tire assembly by moving wheels from front to back one side at a time, if your wheels tires are all the same size. Assuming you have figured out which wheel it is, do the following: Leave all weights on the wheel, and spin it on balance machine ... if it shows as balanced, or fairly close (put a wheel on 3 different balance machines, and they will probably all read slightly different ... ), then chances are it is not a balance issue. Most shops, if you ask them to re-balance the wheel, will remove the weights, then balance the wheel again. If balance looks ok, then break the bead of the tire and rotate tire 180 degrees (half-way) around the wheel. Re-balance and road test. This more often than not cures a road force vibration issue by moving the stiff spot of the tire away from the high spot on the wheel ... which thru simple random luck ended up poorly aligned.
" Balanced ... " does not always equal "smooth ... " And a vibration is not always a symptom of an out of balance condition.
Road force variation causes most vibration issues, not poor balancing. Road force variation is like a mattress with a lump in it ... every time you roll over the lump, you feel it. Your tire, when it is manufactured, has a very small lump as a by-product of the way it is put together. And every time the tire rolls over that "lump ... " , there is the possibility that it can be felt in the car. And, unless a shop has an extremely expensive road force balancing machine, and the time, patience and training to use it properly ( it takes roughly 4X as long to properly road force balance a tire, and even shops that have the machine typically only road force balance on come-backs ... ), then they have NO IDEA !!! if a vibration is balance or road force generated. All they know is that you the customer are not happy, and they get to try again, for free. And they hate that ... !
You can balance a severely bent wheel / tire, with enough weight. It will spin out to 0.0's , and be perfectly balanced ... but it will definitely not drive smooth. And you can take it back a second, or third or whatever time, and it will again be balanced, but not run smooth ... EVER.
Your wheel / tire assembly is like that bent wheel ... every wheel, if measured precisely enough, is out of round. And every tire, again, if precisely measured, has a low/high, or more likely, a stiff spot (that "lump " we mentioned earlier ... ) What you want to avoid is putting the high/stiff spot on the tire at the high point on the wheel. You want to put the high/stiff part of the tire at the low point of the wheel to cancel out the two imperfections to the greatest degree possible. How do you do that ?
Well, car makers want their new car to be as smooth as possible. So they measure every wheel, discard / return those that don't meet their specs, and, very importantly, mark the low spot on the wheel before ever mounting a tire. The low spot is marked with a sticker, a paint mark or even a dimple in the wheel. Same with tires. All are measured, and those that meet the oem specs (usually much stricter than aftermarket tires ) are again marked, typically with a red dot showing the high / stiff spot on the tire. When the tires are mounted on the wheels, they match the high / stiff spot of the tire to the low spot marked on the wheel, and often re-test the wheel / tire assembly to triple check for smooth operation.
And that is the problem when you dismount your factory tires, and get new tires mounted. You don't get that absolute focus on smoothness that the car maker obsessed about, for a number of reasons. First, if your wheels are not permanently marked at the low spot, then you have lost this key piece of info going forward. There is no way to optimize the wheel / tire placement. Second, your replacement tires may not be as round / uniform as the original equipment tires, and may not be marked the same way. Third, the tech mounting and balancing the tires may not understand / not been trained / not care about any of this info. So random luck can play a factor.
My simple advice for a vibration ( note I didn't say "balance ... " ) issue is this. First, see if you can isolate the problem wheel / tire assembly by moving wheels from front to back one side at a time, if your wheels tires are all the same size. Assuming you have figured out which wheel it is, do the following: Leave all weights on the wheel, and spin it on balance machine ... if it shows as balanced, or fairly close (put a wheel on 3 different balance machines, and they will probably all read slightly different ... ), then chances are it is not a balance issue. Most shops, if you ask them to re-balance the wheel, will remove the weights, then balance the wheel again. If balance looks ok, then break the bead of the tire and rotate tire 180 degrees (half-way) around the wheel. Re-balance and road test. This more often than not cures a road force vibration issue by moving the stiff spot of the tire away from the high spot on the wheel ... which thru simple random luck ended up poorly aligned.
Originally Posted by geeman789
Remember this one piece of info ... and you will understand why customers get angry, tech's get frustrated and shop owners pull their hair out with repeat vibration issues !
" Balanced ... " does not always equal "smooth ... " And a vibration is not always a symptom of an out of balance condition.
Road force variation causes most vibration issues, not poor balancing. Road force variation is like a mattress with a lump in it ... every time you roll over the lump, you feel it. Your tire, when it is manufactured, has a very small lump as a by-product of the way it is put together. And every time the tire rolls over that "lump ... " , there is the possibility that it can be felt in the car. And, unless a shop has an extremely expensive road force balancing machine, and the time, patience and training to use it properly ( it takes roughly 4X as long to properly road force balance a tire, and even shops that have the machine typically only road force balance on come-backs ... ), then they have NO IDEA !!! if a vibration is balance or road force generated. All they know is that you the customer are not happy, and they get to try again, for free. And they hate that ... !
You can balance a severely bent wheel / tire, with enough weight. It will spin out to 0.0's , and be perfectly balanced ... but it will definitely not drive smooth. And you can take it back a second, or third or whatever time, and it will again be balanced, but not run smooth ... EVER.
Your wheel / tire assembly is like that bent wheel ... every wheel, if measured precisely enough, is out of round. And every tire, again, if precisely measured, has a low/high, or more likely, a stiff spot (that "lump " we mentioned earlier ... ) What you want to avoid is putting the high/stiff spot on the tire at the high point on the wheel. You want to put the high/stiff part of the tire at the low point of the wheel to cancel out the two imperfections to the greatest degree possible. How do you do that ?
Well, car makers want their new car to be as smooth as possible. So they measure every wheel, discard / return those that don't meet their specs, and, very importantly, mark the low spot on the wheel before ever mounting a tire. The low spot is marked with a sticker, a paint mark or even a dimple in the wheel. Same with tires. All are measured, and those that meet the oem specs (usually much stricter than aftermarket tires ) are again marked, typically with a red dot showing the high / stiff spot on the tire. When the tires are mounted on the wheels, they match the high / stiff spot of the tire to the low spot marked on the wheel, and often re-test the wheel / tire assembly to triple check for smooth operation.
And that is the problem when you dismount your factory tires, and get new tires mounted. You don't get that absolute focus on smoothness that the car maker obsessed about, for a number of reasons. First, if your wheels are not permanently marked at the low spot, then you have lost this key piece of info going forward. There is no way to optimize the wheel / tire placement. Second, your replacement tires may not be as round / uniform as the original equipment tires, and may not be marked the same way. Third, the tech mounting and balancing the tires may not understand / not been trained / not care about any of this info. So random luck can play a factor.
My simple advice for a vibration ( note I didn't say "balance ... " ) issue is this. First, see if you can isolate the problem wheel / tire assembly by moving wheels from front to back one side at a time, if your wheels tires are all the same size. Assuming you have figured out which wheel it is, do the following: Leave all weights on the wheel, and spin it on balance machine ... if it shows as balanced, or fairly close (put a wheel on 3 different balance machines, and they will probably all read slightly different ... ), then chances are it is not a balance issue. Most shops, if you ask them to re-balance the wheel, will remove the weights, then balance the wheel again. If balance looks ok, then break the bead of the tire and rotate tire 180 degrees (half-way) around the wheel. Re-balance and road test. This more often than not cures a road force vibration issue by moving the stiff spot of the tire away from the high spot on the wheel ... which thru simple random luck ended up poorly aligned.
Sticky this post.
Remember this one piece of info ... and you will understand why customers get angry, tech's get frustrated and shop owners pull their hair out with repeat vibration issues !
" Balanced ... " does not always equal "smooth ... " And a vibration is not always a symptom of an out of balance condition.
Road force variation causes most vibration issues, not poor balancing. Road force variation is like a mattress with a lump in it ... every time you roll over the lump, you feel it. Your tire, when it is manufactured, has a very small lump as a by-product of the way it is put together. And every time the tire rolls over that "lump ... " , there is the possibility that it can be felt in the car. And, unless a shop has an extremely expensive road force balancing machine, and the time, patience and training to use it properly ( it takes roughly 4X as long to properly road force balance a tire, and even shops that have the machine typically only road force balance on come-backs ... ), then they have NO IDEA !!! if a vibration is balance or road force generated. All they know is that you the customer are not happy, and they get to try again, for free. And they hate that ... !
You can balance a severely bent wheel / tire, with enough weight. It will spin out to 0.0's , and be perfectly balanced ... but it will definitely not drive smooth. And you can take it back a second, or third or whatever time, and it will again be balanced, but not run smooth ... EVER.
Your wheel / tire assembly is like that bent wheel ... every wheel, if measured precisely enough, is out of round. And every tire, again, if precisely measured, has a low/high, or more likely, a stiff spot (that "lump " we mentioned earlier ... ) What you want to avoid is putting the high/stiff spot on the tire at the high point on the wheel. You want to put the high/stiff part of the tire at the low point of the wheel to cancel out the two imperfections to the greatest degree possible. How do you do that ?
Well, car makers want their new car to be as smooth as possible. So they measure every wheel, discard / return those that don't meet their specs, and, very importantly, mark the low spot on the wheel before ever mounting a tire. The low spot is marked with a sticker, a paint mark or even a dimple in the wheel. Same with tires. All are measured, and those that meet the oem specs (usually much stricter than aftermarket tires ) are again marked, typically with a red dot showing the high / stiff spot on the tire. When the tires are mounted on the wheels, they match the high / stiff spot of the tire to the low spot marked on the wheel, and often re-test the wheel / tire assembly to triple check for smooth operation.
And that is the problem when you dismount your factory tires, and get new tires mounted. You don't get that absolute focus on smoothness that the car maker obsessed about, for a number of reasons. First, if your wheels are not permanently marked at the low spot, then you have lost this key piece of info going forward. There is no way to optimize the wheel / tire placement. Second, your replacement tires may not be as round / uniform as the original equipment tires, and may not be marked the same way. Third, the tech mounting and balancing the tires may not understand / not been trained / not care about any of this info. So random luck can play a factor.
My simple advice for a vibration ( note I didn't say "balance ... " ) issue is this. First, see if you can isolate the problem wheel / tire assembly by moving wheels from front to back one side at a time, if your wheels tires are all the same size. Assuming you have figured out which wheel it is, do the following: Leave all weights on the wheel, and spin it on balance machine ... if it shows as balanced, or fairly close (put a wheel on 3 different balance machines, and they will probably all read slightly different ... ), then chances are it is not a balance issue. Most shops, if you ask them to re-balance the wheel, will remove the weights, then balance the wheel again. If balance looks ok, then break the bead of the tire and rotate tire 180 degrees (half-way) around the wheel. Re-balance and road test. This more often than not cures a road force vibration issue by moving the stiff spot of the tire away from the high spot on the wheel ... which thru simple random luck ended up poorly aligned.
Sticky this post.
If anyone is interested in road force balancing, Hunter has a locator on their website.
https://www.hunter.com/gsp9700
https://www.hunter.com/gsp9700
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Originally Posted by MONKEYMAN
I thought I could get used to the still busy feeling I was getting after tires were balanced. It was better but I found highway driving intense and I could feel every imperfection on road. I contacted Continental and explained my experience. RT43's were recommended and installed on Tuesday. I feel I have my car back. The RT43's are more forgiving. The pleasure factor is returning.
Its too bad about new tires that are bad & wheel balancing is improperly performed. I started buying used wheels & tires. EVERY used wheel/tire set (bought through Craigslist) I bolted on my car were always balanced, without going to my mechanic! Used tires that my mechanic mounted on wheels & balanced were always good & balanced right. One used set of 17 inch wheels/tires I bolted on my car to replace 15 inch OE wheels/tires, were so well balanced, 90MPH felt like 60MPH. I've even gotten free used tires. Not cheap stuff, but Bridgestone, Michelin & Goodyear. Always good.
All the problems people have with new tires/wheels, gee, I recommend used Craigslist wheels & tires. Excellent & best rides I've ever had. The Goodyear Assurances I paid $650? OK, those are great rides too, as good as all the cheap & free stuff. OK, OK, the new Goodyears are lasting longer than my used/free tires. Anyhow, I've been riding on clouds for years....used clouds & new clouds.
I thought I could get used to the still busy feeling I was getting after tires were balanced. It was better but I found highway driving intense and I could feel every imperfection on road. I contacted Continental and explained my experience. RT43's were recommended and installed on Tuesday. I feel I have my car back. The RT43's are more forgiving. The pleasure factor is returning.
Its too bad about new tires that are bad & wheel balancing is improperly performed. I started buying used wheels & tires. EVERY used wheel/tire set (bought through Craigslist) I bolted on my car were always balanced, without going to my mechanic! Used tires that my mechanic mounted on wheels & balanced were always good & balanced right. One used set of 17 inch wheels/tires I bolted on my car to replace 15 inch OE wheels/tires, were so well balanced, 90MPH felt like 60MPH. I've even gotten free used tires. Not cheap stuff, but Bridgestone, Michelin & Goodyear. Always good.
All the problems people have with new tires/wheels, gee, I recommend used Craigslist wheels & tires. Excellent & best rides I've ever had. The Goodyear Assurances I paid $650? OK, those are great rides too, as good as all the cheap & free stuff. OK, OK, the new Goodyears are lasting longer than my used/free tires. Anyhow, I've been riding on clouds for years....used clouds & new clouds.
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Quote
it could be out-of-balance rear tires. May also be out-of-round tires
It is important to understand the difference here. Out-of-round tires can be perfectly balanced and still hop along the road. Tires shake for more reasons than just balance.
If you can get into the shop when they rebalance these, take a look as they spin slowly on the balancing machine. If they're eccentric, reject the bad ones.
it could be out-of-balance rear tires. May also be out-of-round tires
It is important to understand the difference here. Out-of-round tires can be perfectly balanced and still hop along the road. Tires shake for more reasons than just balance.
If you can get into the shop when they rebalance these, take a look as they spin slowly on the balancing machine. If they're eccentric, reject the bad ones.
Originally Posted by Ken2
Quote
it could be out-of-balance rear tires. May also be out-of-round tires
It is important to understand the difference here. Out-of-round tires can be perfectly balanced and still hop along the road. Tires shake for more reasons than just balance.
If you can get into the shop when they rebalance these, take a look as they spin slowly on the balancing machine. If they're eccentric, reject the bad ones.
AND there is a balance machine that can deal with out-of-round tires: The Hunter GSP9700. It measures the amount of out-of-roundness (Is that a word??) and within certain limits can correct it.
Quote
it could be out-of-balance rear tires. May also be out-of-round tires
It is important to understand the difference here. Out-of-round tires can be perfectly balanced and still hop along the road. Tires shake for more reasons than just balance.
If you can get into the shop when they rebalance these, take a look as they spin slowly on the balancing machine. If they're eccentric, reject the bad ones.
AND there is a balance machine that can deal with out-of-round tires: The Hunter GSP9700. It measures the amount of out-of-roundness (Is that a word??) and within certain limits can correct it.
What geeman789 said...
I found this out a few years ago when replacing tires on my GFs Hyundai Accent... same Hankook tires as original... balanced twice with it still having vibration or a bumpy ride... which was the out of roundness... did internet search and found out about putting the red dot on the tire with the white dot on the steel wheel... had those matched up and boom... smooth ride... just got the third set of Hankooks put on a couple weeks ago and told the installer to match the dots... worked like a charm... smooth ride. Did the same with a set of Hankook tires that I put on my Nissan pickup last year... matched the red dot to the valve stem on the aluminum wheel... smooth ride.
I found this out a few years ago when replacing tires on my GFs Hyundai Accent... same Hankook tires as original... balanced twice with it still having vibration or a bumpy ride... which was the out of roundness... did internet search and found out about putting the red dot on the tire with the white dot on the steel wheel... had those matched up and boom... smooth ride... just got the third set of Hankooks put on a couple weeks ago and told the installer to match the dots... worked like a charm... smooth ride. Did the same with a set of Hankook tires that I put on my Nissan pickup last year... matched the red dot to the valve stem on the aluminum wheel... smooth ride.
Originally Posted by 1WildPig
What geeman789 said...
I found this out a few years ago when replacing tires on my GFs Hyundai Accent... same Hankook tires as original... balanced twice with it still having vibration or a bumpy ride... which was the out of roundness... did internet search and found out about putting the red dot on the tire with the white dot on the steel wheel... had those matched up and boom... smooth ride... just got the third set of Hankooks put on a couple weeks ago and told the installer to match the dots... worked like a charm... smooth ride...
Had the same issue with one Michelin Defender tire on a Honda Odyssey. Same thing, balanced, re-balanced twice and still a very noticeable vibration. Shop blamed the tech, then the tire, then the car, then said they didn't feel anything ... ! I found a shop who had a Hunter road force balancer, and they showed me how it works. First, they spin the wheel / tire assembly to measure the actual road-force variance. It is measured in pounds, and most tires meet the minimum spec ( less than 20 lbs force variation ) without need for adjustment. The one we measured was over by a large margin. Then the wheel was measured, and the tire then repositioned on the wheel. The road force variation dropped to single digits, and it balanced with very little weight. And, yes, the vibration was gone !
And, every car (and driver ... ) is different with respect to how sensitive they are to imbalance / road force variation vibrations. One drivers "road feel ... " is another's irritating vibration. I once sat beside a friend driving, noticing his watch and hand just a jiggling at highway speed. I asked him why he didn't get the vibration looked at ... he said " what vibration ... ? " To each his own, I guess.
What geeman789 said...
I found this out a few years ago when replacing tires on my GFs Hyundai Accent... same Hankook tires as original... balanced twice with it still having vibration or a bumpy ride... which was the out of roundness... did internet search and found out about putting the red dot on the tire with the white dot on the steel wheel... had those matched up and boom... smooth ride... just got the third set of Hankooks put on a couple weeks ago and told the installer to match the dots... worked like a charm... smooth ride...
Had the same issue with one Michelin Defender tire on a Honda Odyssey. Same thing, balanced, re-balanced twice and still a very noticeable vibration. Shop blamed the tech, then the tire, then the car, then said they didn't feel anything ... ! I found a shop who had a Hunter road force balancer, and they showed me how it works. First, they spin the wheel / tire assembly to measure the actual road-force variance. It is measured in pounds, and most tires meet the minimum spec ( less than 20 lbs force variation ) without need for adjustment. The one we measured was over by a large margin. Then the wheel was measured, and the tire then repositioned on the wheel. The road force variation dropped to single digits, and it balanced with very little weight. And, yes, the vibration was gone !
And, every car (and driver ... ) is different with respect to how sensitive they are to imbalance / road force variation vibrations. One drivers "road feel ... " is another's irritating vibration. I once sat beside a friend driving, noticing his watch and hand just a jiggling at highway speed. I asked him why he didn't get the vibration looked at ... he said " what vibration ... ? " To each his own, I guess.
So the RT43s have been an improvement, but not perfect. As geeman789 eloquently explained the OEM goes through extra steps to make sure the tires are right. I miss my Nexens because they ride was noticeably more smooth compared to replacement tires.The RT43s are not bad, just feels something is a little off. At this point not enough to go back to the shop to complain. It also may be the difference in tires. Nexens were very soft and absorbed imperfections.
Thanks again! I learned a lot.
Thanks again! I learned a lot.
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