Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil brands?

[Audi Junkie]

How do you valuate the research and development? Can't just read ingredients off the bottle for that. It's like making a list of ingredients in a piece of fancy pastry and saying it's not good to eat because it's "value ratio" or whatever you call it. It's similar to how it was explained by my Philosophy of Science professor, Dr. Zoltan Domotor (can't make that one up). He explined it by using the metaphor of breaking down a fine aged wine by it's chemical componets and reassembling it, something is lost in time and process. That is, it takes more than just a list of chemicals to tell you what something really is...lol like a human being!

What I'm also saying is that R&D costs money, unseen money and for that we get things like German Syntec. Maybe not a good example because it's base is expensive and exotic, but from info here, took a bit of tweaking to being the final product to market.

As for as % of base oils, forget it, you'll never know. Add pack costs money too.

 

[Max_Wander]

R&D are one time costs, and the longer it goes on, the more extensive the data set. I'm pretty assured that the oil companies know what they need to know, and any further brainstorming is applied to increasing their cost to profit margin. I think they have it too good with the GrIII deal, now they've even discovered formulations to make crude perform as synthetics (in some important key areas). Specific ingredients aside, we all generally know that GrIII is substantially cheaper to make, by a pretty wide margin, but has NOT reflected this on the price sticker. Thats gouging and thats what I have the problem with, but really who's complaining? The unpleasant, metaphoric anal penetration is far worse on their other products; fuel! These people probably have a multi million dollar budget for their blind robbery department. In terms of motor oil, SOPUS seems to be the only one charging a more honest price for their GrIII synthetics (with all the PP/QS sales and such). That's actually smart for them, because theyre certainly not losing money for one, and theyre stealing huge market share from those other greedy mofos *cough*XOM*cough*, and good on em!

 

[Brewmaster]

In Europe it HAS to be a Group IV oil to be called synthetic. In North America a Group III can be called Synthetic.

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Group IV (4) and Group V (5) base oil (synthetics) are chemically made from uniform molecules with no paraffin and don't need Viscosity Additives. However, in recent years Group III (3) based oils have been labeled "synthetic" through a legal loophole. These are petroleum based Group II (2) oils that have had the sulfur refined out making them more pure and longer lasting. Group III (3) "synthetic" motor oils must employ Viscosity Additives being petroleum based.
Group V (5) based synthetics are usually not compatible with petroleum or petroleum fuels and have poor seal swell. These are used for air compressors, hydraulics, etc. It's the Group IV (4) PAO based synthetics that make the best motor oils. They are compatible with petroleum based oils and fuels plus they have better seal swell than petroleum. Typically PAO based motor oils use no Viscosity Additives yet pass the multi-grade viscosity requirements as a straight weight! This makes them ideal under a greater temperature range. One advantage of not having to employ Viscosity Improving additives is having a more pure undiluted lubricant that can be loaded with more longevity and performance additives to keep the oil cleaner longer with better mileage/horsepower.
How do I know what motor oil is a Group IV (4) based PAO synthetic motor oil?
As more and more large oil companies switched their "synthetic" motor oils to the less expensive/more profitable Group III (3) base stocks it has become much easier to identify which are PAO based true synthetic. Of the large oil companies, only Mobil 1, as of this writing (12-15-2007), is still a PAO based true synthetic. The rest, including Castrol Syntec, have switched to the cheaper/more profitable Group III (3) petroleum based "synthetic" motor oil. AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils are PAO based true synthetic motor oils with the exception of the short oil drain XL-7500 synthetic motor oils sold at some Auto Parts Stores and Quick Oil Change Centers. This leaves more than 20 PAO based true synthetic motor oils manufactured and marketed by AMSOIL with only 4 Group III (3) based synthetic motor oils identified by the "XL-7500" product name.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Brewmaster - This "Amsoil speak" advertising document does not tell a current story. It also tends to "insist" on a basic "base carrier fluid" as being the "be all and end all" of an outstanding lubricant - it isn't

IME it is the sum of the total package of ingredients that makes up the end performance of any lubricant

Lubricants such as Shell's excellent range of synthetics with a variety of formulations rarely rates a mention on BITOG. Strange but they have been making wonderful synthetic fluids for much longer thn Amsoil for example. The same can be said for Chevron-Caltex products. And as for Castrol, it would be wise to realise that as one of the oldest formulators of excellent synthetic and semi-synthetic lubricants going back around 70 or so years - their current Edge and Syntec products are amongst the best selling lubricants throughout the World. Some are amongst the very best lubricants available at any price! Castrol has an excellent development record with both BMW and the VW Group as well of course

And then there are all the others, Valvoline, Agip, Motul, Fuchs, Elf, Liqui Moly and etc..........

Until we can dissect every lubricant on the market and come up with absolutely clear formulation bottom lines and then place them all in neat little "Group" boxes the likes of Amsoil's comparitive advertising will always leave much to be desired IMO. It is how they perform in service that matters most!!

Sad that, because the latest range of Amsoil products seem to ne quite good too - probably even as good as some versions of Edge and Syntec!

 

[ledslinger]

Many responses indicate that regardless of components, performance is what counts. What about extreme demands on oil, such as the highest temps an oil can encounter. Does PAO give any extra protection over group III? Say if you were forced to run in an overheat situation or were unaware of overheating.

 

[dbvettez061]

The question of all questions, but, answers are hard to find....Guess my choice of Mobil 1 for the past 15 years has been a good one....
Even my 750+ HP Z06 likes it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
ledslinger - My guess would be that your question requires a matrix of questions to provide a matrix of answers. IME short term high component temperatures (beyond 130C - 150C) will be handeled comfortably by almost any lubricant - and very well by most modern Grp 3 lubricants. It is longer term very high bulk lubricant temperatures that are typically most damaging to any lubricant

 

[JohnBrowning]

If you are looking for true synthetics on the retail shelf M1 0W40 is about the only one that is still nothing lower then G-IV and V base stocks including Alky Napthens which are G-V. Last I knew M1 0W40 was made from 4 different synthetic base stocks but all of them where G-IV or higher no G-III at all. I would imagine that their 0W20 is more of the same all synthetic in the truest sense.

Amsoil has products that are G-III and they have some that are PAO and some that are PAO and other high quality base stocks like ester's.

So if you want it on a retail shelf you are very very limited as in 2 products from M1....I expect that most of their other products like their EP line are made from everything from G-III on up.

In a daily driver I would not be too concerned I mean I used PP and I know it is a mut with regaurd to base stocks can you say Heinz 57??? All that really matters in a daily driver is performance so good wear numbers ,cleanliness and the ability to stay in the sump a long long time! Most OTC synthetics cannot last long they have weak staying power. This has little to do with base stock and everything to do with additive package!

If you do not mind mail ordering your oil their a lot of oils that are PAO or Ester based with no G-III in them at all!

 

[JohnBrowning]

If you are looking for true synthetics on the retail shelf M1 0W40 is about the only one that is still nothing lower then G-IV and V base stocks including Alky Napthens which are G-V. Last I knew M1 0W40 was made from 4 different synthetic base stocks but all of them where G-IV or higher no G-III at all. I would imagine that their 0W20 is more of the same all synthetic in the truest sense.

Amsoil has products that are G-III and they have some that are PAO and some that are PAO and other high quality base stocks like ester's.

So if you want it on a retail shelf you are very very limited as in 2 products from M1....I expect that most of their other products like their EP line are made from everything from G-III on up.

In a daily driver I would not be too concerned I mean I used PP and I know it is a mut with regaurd to base stocks can you say Heinz 57??? All that really matters in a daily driver is performance so good wear numbers ,cleanliness and the ability to stay in the sump a long long time! Most OTC synthetics cannot last long they have weak staying power. This has little to do with base stock and everything to do with additive package!

If you do not mind mail ordering your oil their a lot of oils that are PAO or Ester based with no G-III in them at all!

 

[Aikido]

I know this is an old thread but the information may still be relevant. The Grade IV motor oils are labeled "100% Synthetic" as opposed to the "Full Synthetic" Grade III/dino based oils. That's my understanding based on the research I've done. The sellers of these products may have other tricks up their collective sleeves so I will not claim absolute certainty about my claim. I would do further research on any product that I would actually buy.

 

[dave1251]

This thread is nearly useless groups of base oils do not matter only performance matters.

 

[StevieC]

100% synthetic can still mean Group III because Group III hydrocracked oils are allowed to be called synthetic so they are essentially saying it's 100% group III or higher so that doesn't mean anything either.

Not that basestock matters. All basestocks from III and up have their advantages and disadvantages and it's picking the right one in the right weights with the right additives that make an oil perform not the basestock alone. It's not the 1970's any longer.

 

[PimTac]

This Akido poster is new and is just resurrecting old threads.

I suspect a new fly has come in to join the others.

 

[ofelas]

Some of us have vehicles stuck in a time warp Stevie

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by ofelas
Some of us have vehicles stuck in a time warp Stevie

Some of the members here seem to be as well...

(Not aimed at you)

 

[LeakySeals]

How about.. Joe Gibbs LS30?