Formula 4 Macau Crash

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Michèle Mouton - World Rally Championship driver for 12 years. Runner up in the championship in 1982, beating Hanu Mikkola, Stig Blomqvist, Per Eklund, Ari Vatenen, Pentti Arikkala and 68 other men. Won the Pikes Peak hill climb in 1985, taking 13 seconds off of Al Unser Jr's record whilst doing it.

Yes, it is one example amongst an overwhelming history of male talent. But let's not forget that in men there is a very low success rate - most male drivers don't get to F1 or any other international championship. For every Vettel, Hamilton, Verstappen there are hundreds of wannabe men who weren't good enough.

And finally, with the deeply entrenched male chauvanism, egotism and downright sexism presented perfectly above, is it any wonder that women can't succeed?
 
Originally Posted by weasley
And finally, with the deeply entrenched male chauvanism, egotism and downright sexism presented perfectly above, is it any wonder that women can't succeed?

Spare me. "Male chauvinism" isn't keeping them out of the drivers seat, let alone the winners circle. Lack of talent is. If Penske, Ganassi, or ANY of the TOP teams in Indy Car or NASCAR thought for a second they could put a female in one of their cars that would result in a winning performance, they would be there. They can't because there are none.

And there never have been, or will be. If there were you would have seen it by now. Danica was pushed harder, and given more opportunity than any other female driver ever. Because there were several people, (Bobby Rahal among them), who actually believed she was the real deal, and had winning talent. She wasn't and didn't. Not from the very beginning of her career in 2000 in the British Formula Ford Series. Not through the Barber Dodge Pro Series in 2002. Not through the Toyota Atlantic Series in 2003 and 2004. And certainly not in Indy Car or NASCAR.

She managed only one win in her entire career that spanned almost 20 years. All with good teams that provided her with excellent equipment all along. She simply couldn't do anything with it but wreck it. And as was mentioned many times, that one and only win happened because everyone in front of her ran out of gas. It's not as if she out drove anyone. The only reason Danica lasted as long as she did, was because of the fact she WAS a woman. Not because she could drive. Let alone drive with enough talent to win.

And remember, she's the "best" that has come along thus far. All of these feeder series she has competed in, have produced all of the World Champion driving talent you see today. As well as all of the talent from years past. None of them were, are, or ever will be women. You can carry on, whine and blame, "chauvinism", "sexism", "egotism", along with everything else you can think of. It doesn't matter because it's all B.S. They aren't there because they lack the talent to be there, period. And in the mean time all of your silly, politically correct, progressive hogwash changes nothing.
 
And there it is. When you are part of the problem, you can't see the problem.
 
Originally Posted by weasley
And there it is. When you are part of the problem, you can't see the problem.

You want to, "see the problem". Here it is.

Full list of female Indy Car drivers to date:

Janet Guthrie
Desire Wilson
Amber Furst
Lyn St. James
Sarah Fisher
Danica Patrick
Milka Duno
Simona De Silvestro
Ana Beatriz Figuereido
Pippa Mann
Katherine Legge

That's 11 women drivers over the last 42 years. With a combined total of 47 starts. None of which has ever won, or ever placed higher than 3rd, (Danica).

Full list of female NASCAR drivers to date:

Christine Beckers
Ann Bunselmeyer
Ann Chester
Sara Christian
Janet Guthrie
Arlene Hiss
Laura Lane
Marta Leonard
Lella Lombardi
Robin McCall
Ethel Mobley
Patty Moise
Marian Pagan
Goldie Parsons
Danica Patrick
Shawna Robinson
FiFi Scott
Dorothy Shull
Ann Slaasted

That's 19 women drivers over the same 42 year time span. All with a combined total of 269 starts. None of which has ever won, or ever placed higher than 5th, (Danica).

Now, educate me as to what you think is going to change over the next 42 years? Other than having more politically correct boys like yourself, making better excuses for them by blaming men, society, "chauvinism", along with everything and everyone else you can think of, for their total lack of possessing any winning driving skill or talent.

Affirmative Action in racing doesn't produce any better results than it does in any other field of endeavor.
 
And how many men are there with the same (or worse) stats than above? What you have is a list of people who failed to set the world alight. There are countless hundreds - thousands - more who have also failed to deliver, but with a Y chromosome.
 
Originally Posted by weasley
And how many men are there with the same (or worse) stats than above? What you have is a list of people who failed to set the world alight. There are countless hundreds - thousands - more who have also failed to deliver, but with a Y chromosome.

Attempting to posture, and or defend this 42 year old powder puff, demolition derby changes nothing. Society and politics, coupled with political correctness and a progressive thinking social agenda, along with a bumper crop of neutered, sympathetic boys masquerading as, "sensitive modern men", has resulted in successfully placing / pushing / positioning women into places they've never been before.

From the Supreme Court, into board rooms across America. Into squad cars in high crime areas, into combat zones, on to the tailboard of fire engines, or into the left seat of airliners. Even into the front seat of an F-14 Tomcat. (We all saw first hand just how well that worked out). But they will never push them to the front of a pack of dozens of 200+ MPH race cars. All being driven to the ragged edge by men. All of which who are far more talented at it than they are. Not to mention physically stronger, more mentally aggressive, and more enduring. It will never happen in the upper echelon of motor racing like Formula 1, Indy Car, or NASCAR.

You have seen the direct results of over 4 decades of non stop pushing and trying. With a multitude of different women. All of which have managed to accomplish nothing but wrecking and losing. Week in and week out. Year in and year out. Nothing will change in the next 42 years. Or in the 42 years after that. Simply because you cannot change human physiology.

It's why you have ball girls wearing makeup, sitting in foul territory in tight short pants in Major League Baseball. And not standing on the mound as starting pitchers, picking the corners at 95 MPH. Even Jennie Finch, the hottest female pitcher who ever lived, would not have lasted a single inning as a pitcher in a MLB game. Because the starting lineup of ANY team in Major League Baseball, would have pounded the ball down her throat on their worst day, against her best.

The same with professional tennis, golf, and basketball. These professional sports were all smart enough to start and REMAIN gender segregated. Because they all knew just how disastrous the results would have been if they didn't. Even both Summer and Winter Olympic sports separate gender for the exact same reasons. It would be idiotic to combine them, and expect any type of positive female result.

Motor racing wasn't so smart. They still haven't learned their lesson. Even though they keep getting the same results every time they try. Regardless of who they try it with. They prove the definition of insanity every weekend. They keep doing the same thing over and over. All the while trying and hoping to achieve a different result that never happens, or ever will. Just as the last 4+ decades have proven.

I only hope that some innocent driver(s) or spectator(s) don't end up getting killed until they learn. Like what almost happened in Macau. And any or all of this has nothing to do with, "chauvinism". It's called reality. Everything else is nothing but a bunch of sugar coated, progressive B.S.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by weasley
And finally, with the deeply entrenched male chauvanism, egotism and downright sexism presented perfectly above, is it any wonder that women can't succeed?

Spare me. "Male chauvinism" isn't keeping them out of the drivers seat, let alone the winners circle. Lack of talent is. If Penske, Ganassi, or ANY of the TOP teams in Indy Car or NASCAR thought for a second they could put a female in one of their cars that would result in a winning performance, they would be there. They can't because there are none.

And there never have been, or will be. If there were you would have seen it by now. Danica was pushed harder, and given more opportunity than any other female driver ever. Because there were several people, (Bobby Rahal among them), who actually believed she was the real deal, and had winning talent. She wasn't and didn't. Not from the very beginning of her career in 2000 in the British Formula Ford Series. Not through the Barber Dodge Pro Series in 2002. Not through the Toyota Atlantic Series in 2003 and 2004. And certainly not in Indy Car or NASCAR.

She managed only one win in her entire career that spanned almost 20 years. All with good teams that provided her with excellent equipment all along. She simply couldn't do anything with it but wreck it. And as was mentioned many times, that one and only win happened because everyone in front of her ran out of gas. It's not as if she out drove anyone. The only reason Danica lasted as long as she did, was because of the fact she WAS a woman. Not because she could drive. Let alone drive with enough talent to win.

And remember, she's the "best" that has come along thus far. All of these feeder series she has competed in, have produced all of the World Champion driving talent you see today. As well as all of the talent from years past. None of them were, are, or ever will be women. You can carry on, whine and blame, "chauvinism", "sexism", "egotism", along with everything else you can think of. It doesn't matter because it's all B.S. They aren't there because they lack the talent to be there, period. And in the mean time all of your silly, politically correct, progressive hogwash changes nothing.


Bill Auberlen only has 2 wins in a 20+ yr career. There are plenty of drivers who don't have a ton of wins. The races you watch contain the top .05 percent drivers in the world so there are thousands of male drivers who didn't cut it. You might have a point in that women drivers are kept on the team longer than a male driver and there are plenty of male drivers who consistently came in last behind female drivers.

Your argument is weak sauce. End of story.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Bill Auberlen only has 2 wins in a 20+ yr career. There are plenty of drivers who don't have a ton of wins.......End of story.

There is no "story". Because you're trying to sell a fairy tale. Everything you are trying to push has already been run through the cow, and has come out the back end. First off, who's talking about, "a ton of wins"? I'm talking about ANY in over 4 DECADES.

In all men's and women's professional sports you will always have a high level of washouts at the top. If it were easy everyone would be a champion. How many professional women tennis players wash out before they ever make it to Wimbledon? It's most likely 99% or higher. In the LPGA it's higher than that, because there are more of them. How many women pro golfers rise to the level of play of Michelle Wie or Annika Sörenstam? Who happens to be one of the best women pro golfers of all time. And guess what happened to her when she tried to compete against men in the PGA? She was slaughtered and went back to the LPGA like a whipped dog. Yet another failed progressive social experiment gone embarrassingly wrong.

Your "argument" is a joke, because you have none. There is nothing to argue about. Because the degree of difficulty is equal for both sexes when they play against the same. It doesn't change the fact when you combine them, the women will ALWAYS come out at the bottom. Auto racing has proven that over the last 4 decades. And will continue to do so for the next 4. Assuming they are dumb enough to let this stupid, idiotic experiment continue.

What do you think Lindsay Vonn's or Mikaela Shiffrin's win record in Alpine Skiing would look like today, if they had to compete against men throughout their entire career? They would not have won a single race.... Just like Danica in NASCAR. And none of your posturing, nonsense, no name examples, and politically correct B.S. can or will deflect that fact.

I'll ask the same question again the both of you have been dancing around. What is going to change in the next 42 years regarding WOMEN in auto racing? You dodge it because you already know the answer, the same as I do. Because it's already been proven.
 
The only way a woman would win a race in a major league series is if Lewis Hamilton became Liz Hamilton like Bruce Jenner became Caitlyn......
 
Originally Posted by Brigadier
The only way a woman would win a race in a major league series is if Lewis Hamilton became Liz Hamilton like Bruce Jenner became Caitlyn......

"It's" already in the works. However I suspect a doctor with a scalpel will make the results no better.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2...er-driver-charlie-martin-put-life-track/


Charlie Martin Before.jpg


Charlie Martin After.jpg
 
Originally Posted by 555
Perhaps start a new thread on the subject? I understand that you have your opinion to share(kinda why we are on this site!)but you've strayed from the subject title.

Not too much actually. Women boldly going where they've never gone before....... At least this time it only took 2 weeks to learn their lesson. As opposed to 42 years and counting.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Bill Auberlen only has 2 wins in a 20+ yr career. There are plenty of drivers who don't have a ton of wins.......End of story.

There is no "story". Because you're trying to sell a fairy tale. Everything you are trying to push has already been run through the cow, and has come out the back end. First off, who's talking about, "a ton of wins"? I'm talking about ANY in over 4 DECADES.

In all men's and women's professional sports you will always have a high level of washouts at the top. If it were easy everyone would be a champion. How many professional women tennis players wash out before they ever make it to Wimbledon? It's most likely 99% or higher. In the LPGA it's higher than that, because there are more of them. How many women pro golfers rise to the level of play of Michelle Wie or Annika Sörenstam? Who happens to be one of the best women pro golfers of all time. And guess what happened to her when she tried to compete against men in the PGA? She was slaughtered and went back to the LPGA like a whipped dog. Yet another failed progressive social experiment gone embarrassingly wrong.

Your "argument" is a joke, because you have none. There is nothing to argue about. Because the degree of difficulty is equal for both sexes when they play against the same. It doesn't change the fact when you combine them, the women will ALWAYS come out at the bottom. Auto racing has proven that over the last 4 decades. And will continue to do so for the next 4. Assuming they are dumb enough to let this stupid, idiotic experiment continue.

What do you think Lindsay Vonn's or Mikaela Shiffrin's win record in Alpine Skiing would look like today, if they had to compete against men throughout their entire career? They would not have won a single race.... Just like Danica in NASCAR. And none of your posturing, nonsense, no name examples, and politically correct B.S. can or will deflect that fact.

I'll ask the same question again the both of you have been dancing around. What is going to change in the next 42 years regarding WOMEN in auto racing? You dodge it because you already know the answer, the same as I do. Because it's already been proven.



I didn't provide any political bs, so stop lying about what people say just so it fits your narrative. This is your only warning because I don't converse with liars.

Like I said your argument is weak sauce because if women "always" (your words) came in last there would never be any women at the higher levels of racing. Never mind that fact that the ratio of men to women who aspire to race ridiculously high, perhaps 10,000:1 or maybe 50,000:1. The sample size of professional women drivers is so comparatively small that one can't draw any conclusions but ignorance is what it is.
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
I didn't provide any political bs, so stop lying about what people say just so it fits your narrative. This is your only warning because I don't converse with liars.

And I don't converse with B.S. excuse artists. (Although I'll admit I made an exception in your case). And regardless of how much of it you want to sling, it will not cover up the FACT you have not had one competitive woman in NASCAR, Indy Car, or Formula 1 in almost half a century.

And you never will because they're not good enough, period. And they never have been, or ever will be. And it wouldn't matter if every woman on planet Earth decided to take up driving a race car. You would only end up with a bigger reject pool. And If you don't think the best man in ANY professional sport would beat the best woman in the same, you're thinking like a complete fool. However many rejects and washouts you want to pile up underneath either or both means nothing.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
And If you don't think the best man in ANY professional sport would beat the best woman in the same, you're thinking like a complete fool.


Oh dear - you have broadened your argument too much now. Note above you state "...ANY professional sport...". Let me open your eyes to the professional equestrian sports: show jumping, dressage and eventing. These are all competed by men and women on an equal basis and frequently the women come out on top, at the very highest international levels. These sports require skill, strength, intelligence and empathy - and don't even bother trying to state that the horse does all the work, because if you think that you have no clue what you are on about.
 
Originally Posted by weasley
Originally Posted by billt460
And If you don't think the best man in ANY professional sport would beat the best woman in the same, you're thinking like a complete fool.


.....Let me open your eyes to the professional equestrian sports: show jumping, dressage and eventing. These are all competed by men and women on an equal basis and frequently the women come out on top, at the very highest international levels. These sports require skill, strength, intelligence and empathy - and don't even bother trying to state that the horse does all the work, because if you think that you have no clue what you are on about.

You're leaving out show dog walking and quilt competitions. The babes regularly clean up there as well.
smirk2.gif


His entire argument regarding poor female performance in Upper echelon auto racing is based on rejection rates. More men to pick from than women. So he thinks women are at a disadvantage because they lack the tryout numbers. That's pure nonsense. What they lack is across the board talent. Regardless of the sport, you end up with the top men and women players. Which is no contest if you put them against each other. Which is why they separate the genders.

Do you, he, or anyone else actually think the reason Serena Williams could NEVER beat Roger Federer in a straight up tennis match, is because they didn't have enough women to pick from? So Serena was the best they could come up with. Based on what few women players they had to choose from. That's ridiculous. She would be lucky if she could beat McEnroe today. And there could very well be more women attempting to get into professional tennis today, than there are men. These exclusive Summer tennis camps are packed full of young girls, who's wealthy parents all want their daughters to be the next Steffi Graff.

If as many women as men tried out as place kickers in the NFL, do you think we would have women kicking field goals on Sunday? That's his whole argument. And it's irrelevant, not to mention O.D.'ing on stupid. Women can "compete" in auto racing. But they will NEVER compete and beat men at the top levels. (NASCAR, Indy Car, Formula 1). NEVER. This regardless of how many men manage to sit on the sidelines making excuses for them. Or how many suddenly get the urge to become the next Danica.

And seeing as he is so afraid to answer my question, maybe you'll be willing to take a stab at it. What do you think is going to happen regarding women in upper echelon auto racing, (NASCAR, Indy Car, Formula 1), in the next 42 years? Do you think we will see one winner? Just one?
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
I didn't provide any political bs, so stop lying about what people say just so it fits your narrative. This is your only warning because I don't converse with liars.

And I don't converse with B.S. excuse artists. (Although I'll admit I made an exception in your case). And regardless of how much of it you want to sling, it will not cover up the FACT you have not had one competitive woman in NASCAR, Indy Car, or Formula 1 in almost half a century.

And you never will because they're not good enough, period. And they never have been, or ever will be. And it wouldn't matter if every woman on planet Earth decided to take up driving a race car. You would only end up with a bigger reject pool. And If you don't think the best man in ANY professional sport would beat the best woman in the same, you're thinking like a complete fool. However many rejects and washouts you want to pile up underneath either or both means nothing.



Be definition any driver who IS in the upper echelons of racing IS competitive. Try to keep the cognitive dissonance to a minimum.
 
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