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Head with leaky valves advice needed #5007135
02/10/19 04:48 PM
02/10/19 04:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
rshaw125 Offline OP
rshaw125  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
A buddy of mine had persistent misfires on his Taurus. Compression test showed two weak cylinders. He pulled the head and laid it on it's side. Filled the ports with water after a few minutes a tiny dribble out of one valve. 1 of 6 intake valves. DOHC Ford. Then exhaust side . Two valves with little dribbles after a few minutes. Are these little dribbles enough to cause the misfire and low compression? The engine has around 150,000 miles. Is this just normal wear??


2012 Porsche Carrera S
2016 Ford Edge 2.0
2002 Taurus Vulcan SOLD
2006 Explorer SOLD
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007142
02/10/19 04:56 PM
02/10/19 04:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 435
hawthorne, Ca.
46Harry Offline
46Harry  Offline

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 435
hawthorne, Ca.
Since the head is off and there is leakage from the valves, now would be a good time to get the head reconditioned especially since the engine has 150,000 miles on it.

Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007153
02/10/19 05:02 PM
02/10/19 05:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 471
North of you Idaho
KneeGrinder Offline
KneeGrinder  Offline

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 471
North of you Idaho
Pouring water in the combustion chamber now? Yes it will show the leaking valve seats if they a fairly bad. Will cause lower compression, yes, but he really should have done a comp test before removal. compression is often lost thru rings or valves. At this point he is in no man's land till he has a valve job done and mounts heads back on motor. Yes, seems like fairly normal wear for a Taurus....

As for valves causing misfire? IDK, If its the intake, and they leak bad enough, yes. The ECU should show a code for misfire if its OBD2, and its the ignition system. Atleast it should...If its back firing thru an intake valve, probably is not going to log a code.

O'pps my bad, he did a comp test, sorry! Nice German car you have by the way! I approve...

Last edited by KneeGrinder; 02/10/19 05:05 PM.

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Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007170
02/10/19 05:12 PM
02/10/19 05:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
rshaw125 Offline OP
rshaw125  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
Thanks for the replies. Yes a compression test revealed the weak cylinders. Wet and dry. Rings are tight. After codes for misfires. The leakages are just dribbles. i was expecting a flow of water. No obviously burned valves.


2012 Porsche Carrera S
2016 Ford Edge 2.0
2002 Taurus Vulcan SOLD
2006 Explorer SOLD
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007212
02/10/19 05:53 PM
02/10/19 05:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,399
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content
StevieC  Online Content

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,399
ON, Canada eh?
There could be different reasons. Slightly bent valve, weak valve springs, worn seats.
Best to take the head in and have it rebuilt and put it back on.


'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - 21k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w30
'06 Hyundai Santa Fe - 535k KM (Dead) - AMSOIL SS 0w30
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: StevieC] #5007259
02/10/19 06:22 PM
02/10/19 06:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 768
RI
mattd Offline
mattd  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 768
RI
What exactly were the compression test results? Valve leakage can certainly cause misfires


2007 Ford F-350 4x4 6.0 PSD

ASE Master, L1
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007275
02/10/19 06:32 PM
02/10/19 06:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
rshaw125 Offline OP
rshaw125  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
The two bad cylinders were 55 and 65 PSI. The good cylinders were 145 - 155.


2012 Porsche Carrera S
2016 Ford Edge 2.0
2002 Taurus Vulcan SOLD
2006 Explorer SOLD
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007300
02/10/19 06:54 PM
02/10/19 06:54 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 267
WA
DeafBrad Online content
DeafBrad  Online Content

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 267
WA
I don't claim to be a professional mechanic or anything. But what is a dribble with water should be significant when the air is under compression.


Toyota Echo 250,000 + miles
Geo XFI 50+ mpg
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Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: DeafBrad] #5007332
02/10/19 07:19 PM
02/10/19 07:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 18,208
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Chris142 Offline
Chris142  Offline

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 18,208
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Originally Posted by DeafBrad
I don't claim to be a professional mechanic or anything. But what is a dribble with water should be significant when the air is under compression.

Yep. If liquid will pass air will really leak past.


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Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007363
02/10/19 07:50 PM
02/10/19 07:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,750
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,750
Waco, TX
Originally Posted by rshaw125
Are these little dribbles enough to cause the misfire and low compression?


Little dribbles after several minutes?

No - - Those will not affect the way the engine runs.

I have seen heads where liquid would almost run out as fast as it poured in - - STILL, no misfires!

But you could SURE hear the whistle in the exhaust when cranking it to start it!!!!!!


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007366
02/10/19 07:51 PM
02/10/19 07:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,750
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,750
Waco, TX
Originally Posted by rshaw125
The two bad cylinders were 55 and 65 PSI. The good cylinders were 145 - 155.


You should have done a "DRY" test followed by a "WET" test.

I honestly do not think the head is your problem, if you got "Just a tiny dribble" after several minutes.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007405
02/10/19 08:18 PM
02/10/19 08:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 21,002
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 21,002
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Sure, numbers like that can and do cause misfires, under 90 psi can cause it and the lower it goes the greater the odds. That kind of leakage is enough to cause the low compression.
Seeing as a wet and dry test was done I think you found the issue.

Edit: You should check the valve guides and cam lobe/lift also, worn guides can cause erratic seating in the running engine and worn lobes can cause low compression, a dial indicator is be the easiest way to tell on a cam in block engine.

Last edited by Trav; 02/10/19 08:28 PM.

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Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: DeafBrad] #5007451
02/10/19 09:14 PM
02/10/19 09:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 471
North of you Idaho
KneeGrinder Offline
KneeGrinder  Offline

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 471
North of you Idaho
Originally Posted by DeafBrad
I don't claim to be a professional mechanic or anything.

"But what is a dribble with water should be significant when the air is under compression."


Correct!


08 Tribeca 86k PUP 5w30 wix
06 Accord Hybrid 134k PPHM 0w20 wix
02 Chevy k3500 99k Delvac 1 esp 5w40 wix
00 F350 136k Delvac 1300 15w40 wix
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: 46Harry] #5007613
02/11/19 06:24 AM
02/11/19 06:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 31,462
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 31,462
NY
Originally Posted by 46Harry
Since the head is off and there is leakage from the valves, now would be a good time to get the head reconditioned especially since the engine has 150,000 miles on it.

+1 And in all honesty if he plans on keeping the car he might as well do the other head, and check the cam.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007617
02/11/19 06:35 AM
02/11/19 06:35 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,614
Upstate NY
Donald Online content
Donald  Online Content

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,614
Upstate NY
Originally Posted by rshaw125
Thanks for the replies. Yes a compression test revealed the weak cylinders. Wet and dry. Rings are tight. After codes for misfires. The leakages are just dribbles. i was expecting a flow of water. No obviously burned valves.


What was done to determine "rings were tight"?

What year Taurus?


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Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007626
02/11/19 06:55 AM
02/11/19 06:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
rshaw125 Offline OP
rshaw125  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
It's a 2004 DOHC. Dry compression test followed by wet. The two bad cylinders saw no improvement from added oil.
Visually the cam lobes look like new.
The head in question is going to the machine shop Wednesday. Trying to decide if the other head should go even if it does not leak water.
Thanks for the replies.


2012 Porsche Carrera S
2016 Ford Edge 2.0
2002 Taurus Vulcan SOLD
2006 Explorer SOLD
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007668
02/11/19 07:47 AM
02/11/19 07:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 768
RI
mattd Offline
mattd  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 768
RI
Did you perform a leakdown test?


2007 Ford F-350 4x4 6.0 PSD

ASE Master, L1
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007670
02/11/19 07:49 AM
02/11/19 07:49 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 31,462
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 31,462
NY
Originally Posted by rshaw125
It's a 2004 DOHC.
The head in question is going to the machine shop Wednesday. Trying to decide if the other head should go even if it does not leak water.

Many years ago I worked in a machine shop, I learned quite a bit from some of the best machinists on L.I. The other head has just as much wear as the head in question, only it is not showing any symptoms, yet. You're halfway there labor wise to having that head done. Having said that, and forgetting ethics, if you're looking to sell the car fix the head in question and let the next person worry about it. If you want to keep the car, or care about ethics I'd do both heads. Imagine 6 months from now, or possibly less having to rip everything apart to do the other head. We are not talking a low mileage car here. I would say 8 out ten times we did heads in pairs.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007673
02/11/19 07:51 AM
02/11/19 07:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,753
Southeast
meep Offline
meep  Offline

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,753
Southeast
stretched timing belt caused misfires/stumbles at idle and low rpm for me.

~50psi is very low pressure.

leaky EXH valve can also cause misfire if it's developing hotspots and causing preignition.


2018 F150
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Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: 46Harry] #5007674
02/11/19 07:52 AM
02/11/19 07:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,390
Texas
WyrTwister Offline
WyrTwister  Offline

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Posts: 2,390
Texas
Originally Posted by 46Harry
Since the head is off and there is leakage from the valves, now would be a good time to get the head reconditioned especially since the engine has 150,000 miles on it.



Exactly what I was thinking .


Wyr
God bless
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: mattd] #5007687
02/11/19 08:12 AM
02/11/19 08:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
rshaw125 Offline OP
rshaw125  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
Originally Posted by mattd
Did you perform a leakdown test?


No. The two low compression cylinders were also the one's that were misfiring. Also the one's with the leaky valves.


2012 Porsche Carrera S
2016 Ford Edge 2.0
2002 Taurus Vulcan SOLD
2006 Explorer SOLD
Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5007713
02/11/19 08:40 AM
02/11/19 08:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 921
missouri
ragtoplvr Offline
ragtoplvr  Offline

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Posts: 921
missouri
Water is a poor choice to leak test valves, it normally does not wet out the surfaces and with the surface tension it normally takes a pretty big hole to leak thru without pressure. Alcohol is a better choice. Bet those valves would gush with alcohol. If the head is still on the engine the alcohol will burn off evaporate much quicker but you still must worry about hydrostatic lock.

Re: Head with leaky valves advice needed [Re: rshaw125] #5008274
02/11/19 06:42 PM
02/11/19 06:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,533
Arkansastan
Propflux01 Offline
Propflux01  Offline

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,533
Arkansastan
Leak down test would have given more info. Since the head is off, recondition it, and press on with pride. If the misfire stops, you will know why.


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