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Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? [Re: westom] #5006086 02/09/19 07:52 PM
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bobdoo Offline
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westom, You either outright lied, or you weren't capable of understanding literally a couple, very simple sentences in wirecutter's review.

I can't imagine what commercial connection would prompt you to do this, so I'm guessing you don't get out much?

You should see your doctor, and discuss your posting 'issues'. Seriously. Your life doesn't have to be this miserable.

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? [Re: bobdoo] #5006308 02/09/19 11:15 PM
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y_p_w Offline
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Originally Posted by bobdoo
westom, You either outright lied, or you weren't capable of understanding literally a couple, very simple sentences in wirecutter's review.

I can't imagine what commercial connection would prompt you to do this, so I'm guessing you don't get out much?

You should see your doctor, and discuss your posting 'issues'. Seriously. Your life doesn't have to be this miserable.

Sounds like you've seen his "work".

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? [Re: bobdoo] #5006448 02/10/19 07:12 AM
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westom Offline
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Originally Posted by bobdoo
You should see your doctor, and discuss your posting 'issues'. Seriously. Your life doesn't have to be this miserable.

Evil must disparage others to mask a glaring fact. No knowledge. The naive will post insults when numbers make obvious what they don;t know.

An adult thinking like an adult would have posted numeric contradictions or question facts with numbers. Honest people always provide those numbers. The deceived cannot. Those most easily brainwashed by extremist rhetoric will not. Proof is, instead, in defamation. Defamation - not intellectual grasp of reality - is why lesser people post insults. Inspired by someone so intellectually challenged that he is also smarter than the generals.

Absolutely amazing how many use childish emotions to replace adult conversations.

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? [Re: bobdoo] #5008409 02/11/19 10:27 PM
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Y_K Offline
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Originally Posted by bobdoo
westom, You either outright lied, or you weren't capable of understanding literally a couple, very simple sentences in wirecutter's review..


The man invokes Physics, while you refer to some marketing stream of characters. Admittedly, it requires some effort and could be painful, when shortcuts are abound. The history of mankind could be presented as History of Shortcuts.
Apparently, simple things, even Ohm's Law can be difficult at first. Start with Voltage, Current, Resistance. Then gently move on to Impedance, Capacitance and Inductance. Hysteresis is around the corner...


Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? [Re: LoneRanger] #5008527 02/12/19 06:43 AM
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LoneRanger Offline OP
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Could someone please tell this layman where to get this protector that only costs $1 per television, computer, or etc? Also, for Westom. Does my Sony PlayStation 4 have built-in noise filtering or should I keep it plugged in to the Monster Clean Power HTS400? The HTS400 advertises noise protection to ensure optimal functioning of whatever is plugged in to it.



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Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? [Re: LoneRanger] #5008549 02/12/19 07:22 AM
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alarmguy Offline
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Its real simple, almost all electronics are made with the possibility of power surges and this is normally designed right into the power supply of the device.

HOWEVER, some devices will be better then others at preventing damage and some power supplies themselves may get damaged and others protection might just degrade over time.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with installing surge suppressors in your home, to me its smart.

On our service calls, more so summer, I have been in countless homes where a surge has taken out some electronics but not others on the SAME line. This is simply because some devices did better at protecting themselves, surge suppressors will better your chances that all will survive in those cases.
Then of course, a power surge like a very close lightening strike can take out almost everything and its possible a surge will be useless in that case no matter what kind it is.

Surge suppressors also have built in noise filtering that may also boast the noise filtering of the devices your are looking to protect.
Not sure what all the posts are about here. Nothing at all wrong with putting surge suppressors in your home and is you shop around, it can be done very cheaply with good protection as in the links I provided previously.

MANY industries and MUCH expensive equipment use additional power conditioning devices in addition to what is built in.

Last edited by alarmguy; 02/12/19 07:25 AM.

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Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? [Re: alarmguy] #5008816 02/12/19 12:51 PM
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y_p_w Offline
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Originally Posted by alarmguy
Its real simple, almost all electronics are made with the possibility of power surges and this is normally designed right into the power supply of the device.

HOWEVER, some devices will be better then others at preventing damage and some power supplies themselves may get damaged and others protection might just degrade over time.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with installing surge suppressors in your home, to me its smart.

Of course they absorb little surges that slowly degrade the MOVs that most surge protectors use. It may make more sense to have a more easily replaceable device take more of that than something built into a device and which may not be as easily replaceable. Certainly there's nothing wrong with building that into a device power supply.

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? [Re: LoneRanger] #5011299 02/14/19 05:47 PM
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westom Offline
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Originally Posted by y_p_w
Of course they absorb little surges that slowly degrade the MOVs that most surge protectors use. It may make more sense to have a more easily replaceable device take more of that than something built into a device and which may not be as easily replaceable. Certainly there's nothing wrong with building that into a device power supply.

Protectors that plug-in (are adjacent to appliances) do degrade quickly. Undersizing increases profits. Those protectors can also fail catastrophically on a surge too tiny to damage any electronics.

Why put those parts inside appliances when appliances already contain protection (without protectors) that is already more robust?

Everything degrades. Only relevant is how much (how fast). One 'whole hosue' protector remains functional for many decades even after many direct lightning strikes. With specification numbers that say why. Then are properly sized.

Degradation is defined by a voltage number - Vb. One MOV manufacture even defines what a properly sized MOV can withstand before it degrades:
> The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.

All more reasons why plug-in protectors do not even claim effective protection. And why a properly earthed 'whole house' protector is effective protection from all types of surges for many decades.

Worse. that plug-in protector can connect a surge directly into a computer's motherboard. Compromising (bypassing) effective protection already inside a PSU. We even demonstrated that in a design review when all powered off computers on a network were damaged by a surge. Plug-in protectors connected that surge directly into motherboards. Then the current found paths to earth via other powered off computers using the network.

A fundamental difference exists. Protectors are being recommended subjectively by some who never did any of this. There was always good reason why facilities (that cannot have damage) always implement the 'whole house' solution. Being many times less expensive is only one so so many reasons. First reason - they cannot have any damage. Not even one power supply can be damaged. Even a protector must remains functional - never fail. In some facilities, an employee might even be fired or transfered for using that ineffective plug-in stuff. Since fire is another reason why those tiny joule 'magic boxes' must not be used.

Fire? What happens when a hundred joule protector is confronted by a hundreds of thousands of joule surge? Learn ony from those who say why with numbers.

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? [Re: LoneRanger] #5011339 02/14/19 06:10 PM
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westom Offline
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Originally Posted by LoneRanger
Could someone please tell this layman where to get this protector that only costs $1 per television, computer, or etc?

I am confused. A '$1 per appliance' solution, that actually does surge protection, was defined many tens (maybe almost 100) times. Do a "find" for paragraphs that contains the phrase 'whole house'.

Even posted was:
Quote
Effective protectors protect from all surges including those created by stray cars, tree rodents, linemen errors, wind, utility switching ... and lightning. Lightning does damage when a homeowner is so foolish as to waste money on plug-in protectors. Facilities that cannot suffer damage from any surge (including lightning) do not waste money on magic box, plug-in protectors.

So many make effective devices including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). All companies known for integrity.

Numbers apply. Lightning (a typical surge) can be 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps.

Go into any big box hardware store or electrical supply house. Ask for their 'whole house' protector. Then read its specification number. It must be 50,000 amps or greater. That is a best protector. How good? That depend on how well you connect it to single point earth ground. Only you are responsible for providing, inspecting, and maintaining that must critical item.

Brand name say little. Effective protection is so old as to be sold as a commodity. Do you care about a farm name that manufactured your peas? Of course not. Same applies to effective protectors. Only specifications matter. Listed were companies of integrity that provide these. Effective protectors are sold by companies making profits rather than effective products. Names such as APC, Belkin, Panamax, Tripplite, Furman, and Monster are not found on 'whole house' protectors -. with an always required and dedicated earth ground hardwire.

Maybe you still do not understand? Any protector adjacent to an appliance does not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. Learn what your telco CO does to suffer 100 surges with each thunderstorm - and no damage. They want their 'whole house' protectors to be up to 50 meters separated from electronics. That separation increases protection. An appliance adjacent protector can even earth a surge destructively through any nearby appliance. Why is that effective protection?

Above solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. If any appliance needs protection then every appliance desperately needs that protection. Just another reason why informed consumers and every facility that cannot have damage always implements a 'whole house' solution. Most attention focuses on THE item that defines every layer of protection. Never a protector. Protection is always about how that protector connects low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends or splices) to what does the protection: single point earth ground.

Re: Old Surge Protector Still Good? [Re: westom] #5011593 02/14/19 09:03 PM
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Garak Offline
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What about protection from your utility itself? I'm never going to have a lightning problem. Well, I can't say never, but you get my drift. My utility does like to unclean power, surges, and more commonly, brownouts.


Plain, simple Garak.

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