Reliability of European Makes and cars in general

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Have you every wondered why Euro cars suffer from so many electrical issues and copious amounts of plastic components which undergo catastrophic failure? IMO the primary driver behind that is the EU-End of Life Vehicle Directive of 2000. Basically the end result is a vehicle of which upwards to 85% can be easily recyclable or 95% recovered. This also impacts makes sold in other jurisdictions because manufacturers use the same parts across all markets. So now you know why your vehicle uses that garbage material for the valve cover/oil pan gasket.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02000L0053-20130611&qid=1405610569066&from=EN

Something to chew on.
 
The IMDS system is not just in Europe, it is fully implemented in North America and Asia.

I've been in Automotive Industry for 24 years, the introduction of IMDS started about 15 years ago. Each and every part that goes into a car must be entered into the system! If you - as a supplier- do not make your full and complete IMDS entries, your tooling cost invoices will be ignored by your customer.

The company I work for makes the instrument panel beams for many cars in NA and Europe, the bill or materials for these can be pretty long, so the IMDS entries are also very time consuming.

For example: a M8 Threaded fastener with zinc plating would require us to enter the fastener x quantity, and from the fastener supplier they must enter the steel used x grams, and get their plating company to list the ingredients x grams of the plated item.

First couple of years when this was introduced, it was a HUGE PITA, but now it's just another task for everyone in the stream of suppliers.
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Have you every wondered why Euro cars suffer from so many electrical issues and copious amounts of plastic components which undergo catastrophic failure? IMO the primary driver behind that is the EU-End of Life Vehicle Directive of 2000. Basically the end result is a vehicle of which upwards to 85% can be easily recyclable or 95% recovered. This also impacts makes sold in other jurisdictions because manufacturers use the same parts across all markets. So now you know why your vehicle uses that garbage material for the valve cover/oil pan gasket.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02000L0053-20130611&qid=1405610569066&from=EN

Something to chew on.

Is that an urban myth? I don't know, nor have I seen any reliable data to prove it. My 2010 Volvo, which was made in EU(Sweden), has not had any issues at all. it has about 93K on it during its 8//9 year life.
 
No, it's not an urban myth.
Manufacturers in Europe are under strict guidelines to ensure their vehicles have as much recyclable content as possible. They are essentially responsible for their vehicles "from cradle to grave"
If not, it ends up in landfills for eons.

Downside of this is many components are made with materials which attract mice, rats and various other rodents (soy, hemp, etc) are all being used.

Officially the program may have started in the 2000's, but many manufacturers were implementing bio-degradable and recyclable (biodegradable mostly) components since the 1980's and 1990's.

To those of you who think Volvo was immune to this, take a look at early 80's models. Volvo foolishly designed a biodegradable wiring harness to fall apart (the insulation) after 15 years or so. The insulation would literally flake away causing electrical shorts. Oodles of fun repairing that one!
lol.gif


Here's some reading for the disbelievers out there:
https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/special-report-cars-made-of-plants.html

https://www.wheels.ca/news/rodent-damage/
 
As per my sig, you can see I've owned several German cars. I've never had any problems with the plastic bits, aside from the E46 coolant overflow tank, which I replaced with an upgraded part before the original one failed.

In fact, two of the worst cars I ever own was a 1993 Mazda MPV and a 2001 Subaru Outback. I bought both these cars new and both were plagued with numerous mechanical issues soon after purchase.

The Mazda started doing this bizarre thing (which the dealer could never fix) where it would sometimes shift back and forth between second and third gear, even at part throttle under light load. Back and forth, back and forth it would shift. I finally decided to put and end to it and drove it out on a desolate, laser straight road in the middle of nowhere. I floored it, running the motor WOT - and back and forth it shifted between 2nd and 3rd, back and forth. I held it there for 10 or 15 minutes, bouncing back and forth between gears at 50 to 65mph, trying to blow it up. But I couldn't kill the [censored] thing!

I traded it in the next day for a 1995 Nissan Quest. The Quest was one of the best vehicles we ever owned during our child raising era.

Scott
 
So the solution would be what? This is not something that has just cropped up in the last several years. Materials and manufacturing have been evolving all along the way.

Thirty years ago or so, most would laugh if you said that cars would be glued together. Today that is the norm.
 
Originally Posted by SLO_Town
The Mazda started doing this bizarre thing (which the dealer could never fix) where it would sometimes shift back and forth between second and third gear, even at part throttle under light load. Back and forth, back and forth it would shift. I finally decided to put and end to it and drove it out on a desolate, laser straight road in the middle of nowhere. I floored it, running the motor WOT - and back and forth it shifted between 2nd and 3rd, back and forth. I held it there for 10 or 15 minutes, bouncing back and forth between gears at 50 to 65mph, trying to blow it up. But I couldn't kill the [censored] thing!

And people wonder why I prefer a 3 pedal manual transmission. They don't randomly shift between gears.
 
My current boss had 3 BMW's in the last 10 years on leases and all have had electrical problems. The 2nd last car ended up in flames on the side of the road. She buys BMW because it's more reliable than the Mercedes she owned before that which kept having a ton of problems and she would always be in loaners.

She wants to drive a German car being a director of the company for appearance with our big customers and the dealership treats her right so she keeps returning.
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I know that my dad and I have done a lot of electrical repairs on German makes and Mercedes and BMW seem to be the worst for the electrical problems, unfortunately he started to slow down and then retired before plastic materials were big in the engine area so I can't comment on that.
 
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My 1995 Mercedes E320 had the disintegrating wiring insulation, which cost me $1200 in parts to fix. The problem is that it degrades while still on the car, as early as 2 years into ownership.

The same car needed all hydraulic cylinders replaced on the convertible top mechanism because of seal leakage. The seals were made from polycaprolactone, a biodegradable polymer, which was a poor choice over polyurethane. The fix costs $5000 at the dealer.

I don't understand how it is "earth friendly" to spend thousands of dollars in repairs that needn't have been spent otherwise? In other words, how is it earth friendly for me to earn that money... for the mechanic to come to work and run his business... and for the plants to manufacture replacement parts that wouldn't happen otherwise?

My 24 year old Mercedes is my summer daily driver.

I've seen the Consumer Reports survey from owners indicate Mercedes was below average for reliability, but above average for consumer satisfaction! I cannot understand this.
 
IIRC people keep cars for a short(er) period of time over there.

Not sure about Europe but isn't used car prices like insanely low in the UK? I don't know if this factors in or not. As in, no one wants to keep them that long, thus a mandate to make them more easily recycled. And, at least over there, it's not that big of a deal.
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Just wild speculation on my part.
 
In Europe and Japan many cars have to have a detailed inspection to be licensed.

You will not find giant tires, brodozers etc over there because the inspections require it back to stock. Even deviation a tire size and make from OE can land you a violation. Approved part no longer made, too bad so sad no pass inspection, no drive. This basically makes many cares un-licensable after 10 years. If you are too poor, there is lots of effective mass transit and an established scooter market. When a car no longer can pass, the price drops and there are companies that buy them and export to the third world. My old truck would fail emissions. If not then then expired brake hoses would need replaced. I changed tire sizes to a larger off the road style instead of the 205-75R15 it came out with. That would all have to be corrected before it could be driven. The AC quit, over here no problem, there, it would have to be fixed. My windows might fog. Oh the horror
 
Originally Posted by supton
IIRC people keep cars for a short(er) period of time over there.

Not sure about Europe but isn't used car prices like insanely low in the UK? I don't know if this factors in or not. As in, no one wants to keep them that long, thus a mandate to make them more easily recycled. And, at least over there, it's not that big of a deal.
21.gif
Just wild speculation on my part.


Except for Finland. Old car park. High taxes is the reason
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Have you every wondered why Euro cars suffer from so many electrical issues and copious amounts of plastic components which undergo catastrophic failure? IMO the primary driver behind that is the EU-End of Life Vehicle Directive of 2000. Basically the end result is a vehicle of which upwards to 85% can be easily recyclable or 95% recovered. This also impacts makes sold in other jurisdictions because manufacturers use the same parts across all markets. So now you know why your vehicle uses that garbage material for the valve cover/oil pan gasket.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02000L0053-20130611&qid=1405610569066&from=EN

Something to chew on.

I do not know man, but my Toyota has more broken plastic pieces in 6 months than all European cars I owned combined. Actually, I am afraid suspension is going to break at any point considering noise when I hit even smallest pothole.
I think issue is more complex, and this is just my hypothesis. You know that for example BMW N63 engine which is notorious for failing coolant hoses is running at 110c. I think very high operating temperature in many of these cars, to increase efficiency is culprit behind it. Than of course there are some stupid calls like plastic propellers on water pumps and BMW decision to put electric water pump (OK can see idea behind it, but did not work obviously very well).
 
Originally Posted by supton
IIRC people keep cars for a short(er) period of time over there.

Not sure about Europe but isn't used car prices like insanely low in the UK? I don't know if this factors in or not. As in, no one wants to keep them that long, thus a mandate to make them more easily recycled. And, at least over there, it's not that big of a deal.
21.gif
Just wild speculation on my part.

Go to Eastern Europe, any taxi is well over 400k on any engine.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
IIRC people keep cars for a short(er) period of time over there.

Not sure about Europe but isn't used car prices like insanely low in the UK? I don't know if this factors in or not. As in, no one wants to keep them that long, thus a mandate to make them more easily recycled. And, at least over there, it's not that big of a deal.
21.gif
Just wild speculation on my part.

Go to Eastern Europe, any taxi is well over 400k on any engine.

Lots of miles, short period of time. Not too surprising. Same here, fleet vehicles can hit high miles. Not sure that translates to the general population though, most people do not put 50k/year onto a vehicle.
 
This is very common with Mercedes headlight wiring insulation, I just had an 11 E350 that needed a headlight asssembly bc the copper wiring was exposed and shorting.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Have you every wondered why Euro cars suffer from so many electrical issues and copious amounts of plastic components which undergo catastrophic failure? IMO the primary driver behind that is the EU-End of Life Vehicle Directive of 2000. Basically the end result is a vehicle of which upwards to 85% can be easily recyclable or 95% recovered. This also impacts makes sold in other jurisdictions because manufacturers use the same parts across all markets. So now you know why your vehicle uses that garbage material for the valve cover/oil pan gasket.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02000L0053-20130611&qid=1405610569066&from=EN

Something to chew on.

I do not know man, but my Toyota has more broken plastic pieces in 6 months than all European cars I owned combined. Actually, I am afraid suspension is going to break at any point considering noise when I hit even smallest pothole.
I think issue is more complex, and this is just my hypothesis. You know that for example BMW N63 engine which is notorious for failing coolant hoses is running at 110c. I think very high operating temperature in many of these cars, to increase efficiency is culprit behind it. Than of course there are some stupid calls like plastic propellers on water pumps and BMW decision to put electric water pump (OK can see idea behind it, but did not work obviously very well).


Every time someone brings up an alleged issue or stereotype concerning a Euro brand, you have to turn around and attack a brand from somewhere else. Defending the euros by using their vehicle merits should be enough.
 
Originally Posted by KGMtech
The IMDS system is not just in Europe, it is fully implemented in North America and Asia.

I've been in Automotive Industry for 24 years, the introduction of IMDS started about 15 years ago. Each and every part that goes into a car must be entered into the system! If you - as a supplier- do not make your full and complete IMDS entries, your tooling cost invoices will be ignored by your customer.

The company I work for makes the instrument panel beams for many cars in NA and Europe, the bill or materials for these can be pretty long, so the IMDS entries are also very time consuming.

For example: a M8 Threaded fastener with zinc plating would require us to enter the fastener x quantity, and from the fastener supplier they must enter the steel used x grams, and get their plating company to list the ingredients x grams of the plated item.

First couple of years when this was introduced, it was a HUGE PITA, but now it's just another task for everyone in the stream of suppliers.



I bet this is why the Ford cataloging got considerably better for most vehicles 2001 and up. Before that VINs just listed options, after the VIN told you what it was built with. Plus they have Historical Vehicle Build of Materials available for 2001MY and up vehicles.
 
Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Have you every wondered why Euro cars suffer from so many electrical issues and copious amounts of plastic components which undergo catastrophic failure? IMO the primary driver behind that is the EU-End of Life Vehicle Directive of 2000. Basically the end result is a vehicle of which upwards to 85% can be easily recyclable or 95% recovered. This also impacts makes sold in other jurisdictions because manufacturers use the same parts across all markets. So now you know why your vehicle uses that garbage material for the valve cover/oil pan gasket.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02000L0053-20130611&qid=1405610569066&from=EN

Something to chew on.

I do not know man, but my Toyota has more broken plastic pieces in 6 months than all European cars I owned combined. Actually, I am afraid suspension is going to break at any point considering noise when I hit even smallest pothole.
I think issue is more complex, and this is just my hypothesis. You know that for example BMW N63 engine which is notorious for failing coolant hoses is running at 110c. I think very high operating temperature in many of these cars, to increase efficiency is culprit behind it. Than of course there are some stupid calls like plastic propellers on water pumps and BMW decision to put electric water pump (OK can see idea behind it, but did not work obviously very well).


Every time someone brings up an alleged issue or stereotype concerning a Euro brand, you have to turn around and attack a brand from somewhere else. Defending the euros by using their vehicle merits should be enough.





Agree. It's obvious you don't like Toyota. No need to keep smearing them at every chance.
 
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