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Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? #4998997
02/01/19 10:44 PM
02/01/19 10:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
Long term storage of diesel fuel requires the periodic polishing of the fuel to remove water, dead critters (assuming biocide use) and other contaminants. One way of accomplishing that is via a centrifuge from the likes of Alfa Laval, Mitsubishi and a few others. Some engine manufacturers, Cummins and Scania to name two, have options for centrifuges of a sort mounted right on the engines to handle the lubricating oil. Question (and I know it's pretty weak) - when used on the lubricating oil what would you think the risk would be of spinning out some additives using such an approach? The easy answer is that it must be pretty small or two respected engine manufacturers would not be using them. But I'm just looking for you guy's opinion.

Last edited by DeepFriar; 02/01/19 10:44 PM.
Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: DeepFriar] #4999048
02/02/19 12:25 AM
02/02/19 12:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,696
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,696
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted by DeepFriar
...when used on the lubricating oil what would you think the risk would be of spinning out some additives using such an approach?


None.

Centrifuging is mainly for separating out solids of heaver mass such as soot.


"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: MolaKule] #4999060
02/02/19 01:16 AM
02/02/19 01:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,750
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,750
Waco, TX
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by DeepFriar
...when used on the lubricating oil what would you think the risk would be of spinning out some additives using such an approach?


None.


That's the truth.

Some folks have also wondered if sub-micronic bypass oil filtration (like the Frantz) would scrub out the additives....
the answer to that is also "no".


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: DeepFriar] #4999077
02/02/19 02:48 AM
02/02/19 02:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,278
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,278
'Stralia
Agree that it's none.

In my turbine days, the centrifuges had a water seal...the varnish, being polar was happier being in the water seal than in the bulk oil so headed that way. The centrifuge was unable to separate that component and clagged up badly.


The Dunning Kruger effect is real.
The Galileo Fallacy is real.
Roll them into one neat package and crackmeup crackmeup crackmeup
Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: DeepFriar] #4999287
02/02/19 10:01 AM
02/02/19 10:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
Thanks very much guys for responding to such an elementary question. I'm actually "designing" a 2500 gallon diesel fuel "system" for 2-5 year storage at a remote vacation lodge compound location. While a use schedule would be generated to roll over the quantity in a two year period I'm just looking at the possibility that it won't be and looking at the extremes. The property is mountainous and below adjacent ridgelines so solar is not under consideration at this time. It's offgrid by about a mile and a half as the crow-does-not-fly and for which the power/utilities guys will gleefully charge me $15 A FOOT to bring in utilities. There will be two John Deere 4045 powered three-phase generators of about 40-45 Kw each. There may have to be a load bank because infrequent, variable (mostly lightly loaded) use may cause wet stacking. Obviously efficiency will suffer, I know. That is one of the reasons why I was considering filtration methods for lubrication also. initial running in, cold starts, light loads, high(er) wear. The other potential problem is settling out of additive, if that's a real thing as in oil bottles, so how much "agitation" may be needed over, say, three month, maybe longer, periods of inactivity? That "settling out" was what got me wondering about the possible slinging out of those additives in a centrifuge. Glad to hear it's not a significant worry and thank you again for helping out the dangerous, uneducated boy engineer inside me. 😁

Larry

Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: DeepFriar] #4999308
02/02/19 10:12 AM
02/02/19 10:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
Just so you don't chop my head off for misposting that item, I came to you guys in this forum because this diesel/oil storage problem has been, in my experience, most often found in recreational boating. It's also where I became aware, if not familiar, with Alfa Laval. So apologies for the post location but that was my "reason why". Also, the property is lake located and there *are* diesel outboards in the future. .... OK that's a reach... J/K. 😉

Larry

Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: DeepFriar] #4999315
02/02/19 10:17 AM
02/02/19 10:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,696
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,696
Iowegia - USA
If you are concerned about some additive fallout over long intervals, drain the lubricant from the bottom center of the oil drum and let gravity do its job. Or take a battery powered drill with a stirrer on the end of a shaft.

I don't think you're going to see much dropout, if any.


"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: DeepFriar] #4999400
02/02/19 11:22 AM
02/02/19 11:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
Thanks Mola. Stir rather than spin or allied with time-based changes seems like the way forward to not worrying about fallout. These engines generally ask for 250 hour changes but a lot of that has to do with hot stacking soot, etc. Would probably (?) be best to follow that 250 or a six month change I'm guessing.

Cheers and thanks again

Larry

Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: DeepFriar] #4999402
02/02/19 11:23 AM
02/02/19 11:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,533
Seattle-ish, WA
Oro_O Offline
Oro_O  Offline

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Seattle-ish, WA
Quote
That "settling out" was what got me wondering about the possible slinging out of those additives in a centrifuge.


To give a real-world example, on another forum I frequent (boating), a user installed a centrifuge to treat the lube oil in his diesels. He regular checks with laboratory oil analysis. Other than topping up, he has not changed his centrifuged lube oil since 2011. This came up during a discussion of bypass and centrifugal filtration about a month ago.

His boat is a converted 83' Wheeler auxiliary from WWII (used as USN auxulliaries and later USCG cutters). I don't know what it's running exactly for engines since it's been repowered (I believe those were originally Sterling gas engines in WWII). Another growing application of centrigual filtering is in fueling big yachts (super and mega yachts). Taking diesel onboard in dodgy, distant locales drives the need to filter it before it even hitting the main tanks. Centrifuging the fuel pre-tank is now becoming a more common practice.

So these applications are out there, and you can probably look at marine and industrial uses to get real-world examples of how the systems are laid out.

Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: DeepFriar] #4999426
02/02/19 11:47 AM
02/02/19 11:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP

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Georgia
Thanks Oro. I see what you mean. Since diesels got *complicated* the biggest single point of failure, in my view, is indeed the fuel. Where older diesels, mechanical injectors for instance, were more tolerant of dirtier fuel the new ones absolutely are not. Most of the trawlers I am familiar with have four layers of filtration (2 Racor and 2 media) even without the Alfa Laval. The last user of even unit injectors, Scania, which are semi-tolerant seems to be going to full electronic.

On the matter of the lube oil centrifuges I have seen literature from Cummins that said using their optional centrifuge system (and other provisions) would yield 20,000 hour service intervals (!). Bear in mind that is adding new lube as it is consumed while likely in continuous duty so the additives, I assume, are getting refreshed and the cold/hot cycle is minimized. I hope the guy you are referencing has a similar scheme to keep additive protection.

Larry

Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: DeepFriar] #4999478
02/02/19 12:48 PM
02/02/19 12:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,478
Georgia
If I may return to this one more (last) time... So some additives may settle out of suspension over time but can not be spun out by a centrifuge? Just ask'n.

Cheers and thanks.

Re: Fuel Polishing/Oil Polishing? [Re: DeepFriar] #5000546
02/03/19 04:27 PM
02/03/19 04:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,533
Seattle-ish, WA
Oro_O Offline
Oro_O  Offline

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Seattle-ish, WA
Quote
I hope the guy you are referencing has a similar scheme to keep additive protection.


Yes - second line of defense (first being the centrifuge) was sample testing, and it was apparently not showing additive depletion/loss.

Last edited by Oro_O; 02/03/19 04:30 PM.
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