TBN & Fuel Dilution

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Is 3-5% fuel dilution acceptable in engine oil? Should TBN be considered in frequency of Oil change intervals?
Some claim TBN can be run down to 1, & some say when it is under half of new spec, it should be changed.


Sounds like these new direct injected engines are prone to some levels of fuel dilution. Most labs consider it unacceptable over 2% and call for an oil change. Is it really hurting anything? I have been chnaging at 300 mile OCI and finding 3.4-4% in the last 3 changes. I am going to submit 1 more to see how bad it gets with cooler winter driving conditions.
 
Do you mean, 3000 mile OCI?
Are you able to get on the highway for some long runs?
What vehicle/engine, miles/km?

I believe that when the TBN get down to ~2%(or is this pH?) is when concern sets it.
I'd say that 3-5% fuel dilution is showing on the high side.
 
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These two topics (fuel dilution and TBN/TAN) really come down to one concept:
Inputs vs. Outputs

There a lot of things that are to be considered when speaking about maintenance of equipment. In no particular order:
- operational patterns and use/severity
- availability for maintenance tasks
- type of maintenance practiced (Predictive, Preventative, or Panic)
- monetary thresholds
- longevity expectations (realistic or otherwise)
- environmental contributors
- equipment controls (air or liquid cooled? condition? frequency of use? etc)
- other minutia

What we really care about is how well a piece of equipment wears; that is mostly what we want to know. This is about a means to an end; what do we need to know and do to reach a desired goal? The "output" we care about is low wear. Really does not matter how we get there, as long as we get there. There are typically many roads to the same destination. And so, with more than one option, we can then open up our considerations to what maximizes our investments, and minimizes our costs and risks. That approach garners the best ROI (return on investment). Using cheap products that risk the health of the equipment is not a sound decision unless you intend to only hold onto that item for a very short period of time. Conversely, over-spending and over-maintaining something has never proven to be anything but a waste of time and money. The key is to match up as many pros and reduce as many cons as possible, blending the selections noted above into a solid plan.

Fuel dilution and base/acid are two separate topics, but they are "inputs" and not an "output". Wear data is an output; often seen in UOAs, PCs and tear-down analysis. Some theorize that UOAs are not all that accurate, but I see that as uninformed. UOAs will never be perfect; that's true. But they are by far the quickest and cheapest method to track normal wear given the limitations of other alternatives. VOAs and UOAs can help us understand the direct health of a lube, and the indirect view of equipment wear (engine, trans, diff, gearboxes, etc).

I care about outputs; that's what tells me how well (or poorly) something is wearing. Inputs are predictors for the potential for change; nothing more or less. Outputs actually tell us what's happening. There are times when inputs show correlation with outputs; other times there is no correlation. And without correlation, there can be no causation. This is KEY and CRITICAL to understanding the delineation of inputs and outputs.

Extreme cases of fuel dilution (above 10%) and extreme acid presence (inversion with a ratio greater than 2:1 for acid to base) have shown that damage is either already present, or imminent. But short of those extremes, things are not nearly as dire as folks purport. Typically, fuel dilution up to 5% shows no real world effects. TBN that is low, or has inverted it's ratio (crossover) also does not automatically indicate horrid wear. I have seen countless UOAs where fuel was between 3-5%, and yet wear goes completely unaffected. I've seen so many UOAs where TBN was low, or crossover with TAN happens, and yet nothing bad happens in terms of wear control.

There is nothing wrong with tracking fuel and base/acid. But these should NOT be used as a trigger for an OCI. The way the should be used is a trigger for continued, and often more close, scrutiny.

- If you maintenance plan is to run "normal" OCIs (at OEM limits) then tracking those two things is pretty much worthless. The OCIs are short enough that there's no predominant proof that they are a risk; you can pretty much ignore them.
- If your maintenance plan is to run extended OCIs (past OEM limits) then tracking fuel and base/acid are important. But here's why ...
They are inputs to an output. As they would increase, you are going to want to pay closer attention to wear rates. If your plan is to UOA every 10k miles (or maybe 100 hours) in a large sump system, and you begin to see an uptick in fuel (or decrease in TBN), then you might consider shortening your UOA sample duration. As long as you understand the baseline of your wear rates, what you are trying to discern is the shift in wear rates that would predict one of two things:
1) a wear rate that is unacceptable (a rate, not a magnitude)
2) a total magnitude of some attribute that is considered a max for the equipment
In other words, you want to let the wear data talk to you; don't ignore it. it's OK for the wear rate to show a slight uptick, as long as the rate does not skyrocket. It's OK and totally normal to see "x" ppm of Fe increase, as long as it does not exceed a predetermined condemnation limit. Examples might be thus:
Fe wear rate no greater than 4ppm/1k miles
concentration no higher than 100ppm of Fe

Just because you see fuel increase or base/acid inversion, does not mean wear is automatically going to be directly affected. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen people scream the sky is falling, and yet the wear is totally unaffected, or is only altered slightly and well within an accepted norm.

Fuel and base/acid are inputs to a maintenance decision; they are not, in and of themselves, a reason to OCI. That decision they drive is not whether or not to change the oil. Once they cross a predetermined threshold, they are criteria that may cause you to pay closer attention to your outputs. Inputs are not a reason to OCI; they are a trigger to start paying closer attention for the POTENTIAL for changes in wear, so that you realize you may be approaching a condemnation limit sooner, versus later. This is also true of viscosity, flashpoint, soot/insolubles. Those are inputs, not outputs. Should they escalate, they are reasons to pay closer attention to the outputs. But nothing more.

The topic of fiscal expenditures also plays into this. There are many times when it's just plain cheaper to OCI than UOA. Small sumps don't lend themselves to continuous monitoring. The odds are in your favor with well-made modern equipment and quality lubes to just OCI with the OEM schedule. It's a tad wasteful; lubes are typically discarded well before they are at risk. But there are times it's just cheaper to OCI than UOA when the risks are low. UOAs are a great tool, but they are not 100% the only way to do something. I use UOAs to establish where my normal wear rates are at, and then I select a maintenance program that can reasonably be expected to offer a safe wear rate at a low cost. I can prove beyond any doubt that my equipment, with my selected products, can easily go 3x the OEM OCI, and yet wear is totally unaffected by that extension, and is immune to the fuel and acid issues. That may or may not be true for every condition, but it is very true for most conditions for most people. However, I encourage people to test and decide for themselves.
I started out doing UOAs and OCIs at 5k miles. Everything was totally fine.
I extended to 7.5k miles; a 50% increase. All is OK.
I went out to 10k miles; a 100% increase. All still OK.
I have gone out to 15k miles; a 200% increase. Still no signs that wear rates are affected negatively, and no indication that concentration condemnation limits are anywhere near being hit.
I use the monitoring system to assure my maintenance choices are sound.

I see no evidence whatsoever that short to moderate OCIs are ever a risk in terms of inputs affecting outputs. And that's not just my personal UOAs, but the 15,000+ I have in my database from all manner of engines and transmissions, from just about every manner of use you can think of in a traditional sense. This isn't anecdotal; it's proven beyond any manner of reasonable doubt.

Use your wear rates and max concentration limits as a reason to OCI; use the outputs to judge how well things are wearing.
Use the lube attributes as a reason to alter you assessment duration (your UOA plan); these are inputs that help you understand when to take your next sample.
 
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Originally Posted by cdlamb
Is 3-5% fuel dilution acceptable in engine oil? Should TBN be considered in frequency of Oil change intervals?
Some claim TBN can be run down to 1, & some say when it is under half of new spec, it should be changed.


Sounds like these new direct injected engines are prone to some levels of fuel dilution. Most labs consider it unacceptable over 2% and call for an oil change. Is it really hurting anything? I have been chnaging at 300 mile OCI and finding 3.4-4% in the last 3 changes. I am going to submit 1 more to see how bad it gets with cooler winter driving conditions.



The TBN value to trigger an oil change depends on the method used to measure it at the lab.
Blackstone says to run TBN down to 1.0. (ASTM D2896 method.)
Polaris says to run TBN down to 35% of virgin. (ASTM D4739 method.)

My opinion is that fuel dilution above 3% is too much, but that's just opinion.
But if fuel dilution is enough to lower the oil viscosity out of grade, that would definitely be too much.
Somebody ought to do that calculation...
 
Originally Posted by cdlamb
Is 3-5% fuel dilution acceptable in engine oil? Should TBN be considered in frequency of Oil change intervals?
Some claim TBN can be run down to 1, & some say when it is under half of new spec, it should be changed.

Sounds like these new direct injected engines are prone to some levels of fuel dilution. Most labs consider it unacceptable over 2% and call for an oil change. Is it really hurting anything? I have been chnaging at 300 mile OCI and finding 3.4-4% in the last 3 changes. I am going to submit 1 more to see how bad it gets with cooler winter driving conditions.


Curious - what make, model, year and engine do you have?

Moderators
This topic could get much more response in another threads topic-room here at BITOG. More discussion on this needed.
 
Just a tidbit on fuel dilution. Cummins specs 5% max on the ISB6.7 regardless of oil viscosity used. That amount would have a lot of people on BITOG putting on tinfoil hats.
 
Yes, thanks DNewton for the information. & yes, it was a typo, I am doing about 5000 kilometer, or around 3000 mile OCI, currently using Pennzoil Platinum synthetic 5W-30

The vehicle is a 2018 F150 3.5 Ecoboost.

It doesn't idle excessively, most of my trips, running to work are about 35 kilometers/ 20 miles, at highway speeds. It does get longer trips when going to the lake, around a 200 kilometer trip at mostly highway speeds. I checked the oil initially at around 4000 kilometers sending the factory oil that was used during the break in period. Fuel dilution on that sample was at 8.47%, that's when I thought I should continue to monitor, as at that time my IOLM was saying I still was at 80% oil life remaining. The next 3 OCI were in the 3.4-4% range, but I expect it to be a little higher again with the colder weather on this last oil change. I purchased it May 30, & it currently has a little over 25,000 kilometers on it. The wear metals were high on the initial sample, Copper was at a reportable level, & silicon was also reportable, but have been steadily declining since.
 
This is the thread I've been looking for!!!

Not to get too far off topic, but I know I've read a thread on this forum before about tests where manufacturers or maybe a rental company never changed the oil (or was it oil filter?), just to see how far the vehicles could go without a change. I think they made it around 80k to 150k miles before engine failure. Even tho there might not be any UOAs that would be relevant here, I'd like to read it again if anyone knows where it is.
 
Another question;

Is it even possible to reduce fuel dilution levels of >5% with even an 8+ hour continuous, even warm weather highway trip, or is it permanent for that OCI, once they reach a certain level?
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Of course, long trips would be ideal to prevent them from reaching those levels in the first place, but that is NOT what I am asking, and is also not always possible.
 
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