Valvoline Modern Engine Preventing D.I. Carbon?

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Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007
One way to clean the backside of the intake valves is to use carb and intake cleaner and spray it down into the intake while someone holds the throttle at 4k RPM, and spray the entire can. Then change the engine oil. That will also clean the intake manifold. I also clean the MAF sensor every oil change with MAF sensor cleaner

I've seen zero independent proof any spray works. If you've ever seen and felt carbon build up on a D.I. intake valve it might as well be black concrete. So, no surprise, sprays, Seafoam, etc. don't seem to do much to magically soften and dissolve rock hard baked on carbon build up. There's a reason manufactures usually only recommend mechanical cleaning methods such as walnut shell blasting. Sprays don't work and there are plenty of independent tests that show they don't work.

@KevinP there is no "fuel wash" of the back side of the intake valves in a D.I. engine from all the research I've done. When the intake valve is open you have nothing but air and PVC vapors flowing IN to the cylinder and ideally nothing flowing the other way. The last thing you want for fuel efficiency is having raw direct injected fuel going back into the intake manifold where it would be wasted and that would also require some sort of reverse flow which would be hard to induce. Everything about efficient combustion for maximum fuel economy, lowest emissions, and greatest power, opposes dumping raw fuel mixture back into the intake manifold. i think it's a myth. If someone has factual evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it?
 
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@KevinP there is no "fuel wash" of the back side of the intake valves in a D.I. engine from all the research I've done. When the intake valve is open you have nothing but air and PVC vapors flowing IN to the cylinder and ideally nothing flowing the other way. The last thing you want for fuel efficiency is having raw direct injected fuel going back into the intake manifold where it would be wasted and that would also require some sort of reverse flow which would be hard to induce. Everything about efficient combustion for maximum fuel economy, lowest emissions, and greatest power, opposes dumping raw fuel mixture back into the intake manifold. i think it's a myth. If someone has factual evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it?


That is not completely true. The best example would be in an Atkinson cycle engine where combustion contents are partially forced back up the intake and these lead to BETTER fuel efficiency, not worse. What is washed up into the intake is not lost, it is used the next time you open the intake valve.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...bustion-cycle-and-what-are-its-benefits/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKKILW3Zj_Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z45fM2N-4C4

And note.... Toyota engine management allows a vehicle to use both Otto & Atkinson operation in a non-hybrid. That would mean they would get fuel/air mixture on the back of the intake valve at least part of the time, presumably allowing for more intake valve cleaning.
 
Additionally Toyota uses DS4 injection in multiple Engines. This means there is both port and direct injection. Based upon power demand. Most of the normal driving time the port injection is supplying a little squirt the traditional way, while direct injection operates at a lower rate. Under heavier load demands it switched entirely to direct injection.
Meanwhile The intake valve opening overlap with the piston compression cycle is a cool way to reduce the volume of the compression stroke under low load driving(rather than Atkinson I consider it temporary displacement reduction).
Regardless, intake valve deposits are not a concern at all in these. Direct injection performance on demand but admittedly you really have to put your foot into it to et it's rated power.most of the throttle space is mapped for efficiency.
Originally Posted by KevinP

Quote

@KevinP there is no "fuel wash" of the back side of the intake valves in a D.I. engine from all the research I've done. When the intake valve is open you have nothing but air and PVC vapors flowing IN to the cylinder and ideally nothing flowing the other way. The last thing you want for fuel efficiency is having raw direct injected fuel going back into the intake manifold where it would be wasted and that would also require some sort of reverse flow which would be hard to induce. Everything about efficient combustion for maximum fuel economy, lowest emissions, and greatest power, opposes dumping raw fuel mixture back into the intake manifold. i think it's a myth. If someone has factual evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it?


That is not completely true. The best example would be in an Atkinson cycle engine where combustion contents are partially forced back up the intake and these lead to BETTER fuel efficiency, not worse. What is washed up into the intake is not lost, it is used the next time you open the intake valve.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...bustion-cycle-and-what-are-its-benefits/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKKILW3Zj_Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z45fM2N-4C4

And note.... Toyota engine management allows a vehicle to use both Otto & Atkinson operation in a non-hybrid. That would mean they would get fuel/air mixture on the back of the intake valve at least part of the time, presumably allowing for more intake valve cleaning.
 
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Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007
One way to clean the backside of the intake valves is to use carb and intake cleaner and spray it down into the intake while someone holds the throttle at 4k RPM, and spray the entire can. Then change the engine oil. That will also clean the intake manifold. I also clean the MAF sensor every oil change with MAF sensor cleaner


Water injection cleans intake valves and pistons/combustion chambers pretty well.
 
VME has updated their Noack to show a Noack of 10% for their 0w20 and 8.5% for their 5w20. Noack though isn't the main culprit, it's the metallic additives in the oil. Walmart no longer carries it but it can be ordered and I was told some dealerships are using this for customer cars to reduce IVD's. The high price of the oil comes from the unique detergent they developed to combat IVD's when any small amount of oil ends up coming in contact with the IV's.

So my initial negative opinion of this oil has changed. It's not marketing. Valvoline didn't do the best job they could have marketing this product.
 
I consider Valvoline Advanced Synthetic to be among the best at preventing carbon buildup.

I consider Valvoline Modern Engine, if their marketing claims are to be believed, an oil that will potentially clean up carbon deposits.
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007
One way to clean the backside of the intake valves is to use carb and intake cleaner and spray it down into the intake while someone holds the throttle at 4k RPM, and spray the entire can. Then change the engine oil. That will also clean the intake manifold. I also clean the MAF sensor every oil change with MAF sensor cleaner


Water injection cleans intake valves and pistons/combustion chambers pretty well.

It also has the potential to hydrolock the engine.
 
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Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007
One way to clean the backside of the intake valves is to use carb and intake cleaner and spray it down into the intake while someone holds the throttle at 4k RPM, and spray the entire can. Then change the engine oil. That will also clean the intake manifold. I also clean the MAF sensor every oil change with MAF sensor cleaner

You are the first guy I've heard of that cleans a maf sensor every oci. The maf sensor can do 100k miles, or more without ever being touched but cleaning if desired every 50k, maybe. That's akin to changing a boutique engine oil every 2k miles.
 
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
So the only way to prevent PCV vapors from contacting the backside of the intake valve is to either eliminate PCV; move to a system like a valve cover evacuator like race cars use that suck it directly into the exhaust; or to suck it out of the crankcase and compress the snot out of it, and then direct-inject it directly into one of the cylinders. That would prevent all fuel and oil from entering the intact tract...


This^
fixing the problem before it occurs is the right way to stop the symptom.
 
There's also oil seeping past turbo shaft seals. I found that on Ford EcoBoost, there's more oil coming from the turbos than the PCV.
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
Not to mention the oil nerds here are the only ones that stress about Noack and other oil specs in fear of D.I., yet the world gets by just fine on bulk oil changes with far less superior oils and with intervals pushed past where it should be. Where are the massive engine failures and OEM's retreating from D.I. technology?

European engines have been using D.I. for years and continue to do so and yes we hear the odd engine having issues but it's not all of them and not all D.I. engine models and they are doing extended drain intervals. :shrug:



We hear the "odd" engine having issues? You ever go to a BMW forum? How about Audi? Know anyone that owns one of these cars? Ever worked on one? It was not odd, it was pretty "normal".

And it's not "all of them"? Well that's pretty reassuring. 5 million units sold and not all of them had carbon buildup on their valves and had to have it walnut shelled away.

I mean, if you're going to write stuff like this, you can't throw around terms like "all", "odd", "where are all the MASSIVE engine failures". And provide zero evidence to the contrary.

No one is saying these issues make it so you have to throw your car away, but they do happen, and they are happening. Take any intake manifold off any DI engine right now. Right now. And you will find carbon buildup on those valves, not seen on a typical port injected vehicle. The car still runs. Some get check engine lights, some don't. Some have a drop in performance and random misfires. Some have a loss of fuel economy. Rough idle. These aren't MASSIVE engine failures, but they are problems.

So if there are oils out there that can prevent this from happening - and it appears as if there is - why stuff conventional whatever in there and just downplay the whole subject?
 
Originally Posted by EngineeringGeek
Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007
One way to clean the backside of the intake valves is to use carb and intake cleaner and spray it down into the intake while someone holds the throttle at 4k RPM, and spray the entire can. Then change the engine oil. That will also clean the intake manifold. I also clean the MAF sensor every oil change with MAF sensor cleaner

I've seen zero independent proof any spray works. If you've ever seen and felt carbon build up on a D.I. intake valve it might as well be black concrete. So, no surprise, sprays, Seafoam, etc. don't seem to do much to magically soften and dissolve rock hard baked on carbon build up. There's a reason manufactures usually only recommend mechanical cleaning methods such as walnut shell blasting. Sprays don't work and there are plenty of independent tests that show they don't work.


Agreed. They do next to nothing to remove carbon deposits on a valve. Carbon is one the hardest substances on earth, you can't spray a cleaner on to it and expect it to do anything. I've taken valves out of engines that were covered in carbon and unloaded whole cans of CRC Valve Cleaner on to them, then let them soak, then heated them with a torch and then sprayed them again. Nothing. It does NOTHING.

The only way any of these products would work is if they are constantly sprayed directly onto the valves the entire time the engine is operating...and wouldn't you know! That's what port injection was!

Now if you need these things cleaned...remove the manifold and blast walnut shells. Vacuum. Extend a wire brush from your cordless drill and spray those cleaners in there for one more go around. Done. Repeat every 60,000 miles.
 
The detergent in gasoline forms a barrier preventing the carbon from adhering to the valves, it would not clean off hard deposits. As long as there is crankcase ventilation going to the intake, a path needs to be available for the fuel to deposit the detergent on the intake valves.
 
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Originally Posted by Ignatius
I consider Valvoline Advanced Synthetic to be among the best at preventing carbon buildup.

I consider Valvoline Modern Engine, if their marketing claims are to be believed, an oil that will potentially clean up carbon deposits.


I believe that VME could do a better job at preventing carbon buildup in a DI engine....BUT.... I would have a hard time believing that it could clean up carbon deposits that are already present.
I picked up about 15 qts. of VME 0w20 during the AZ 'Clearance' last December thinking I'd use it in my brother's new Accord 1.5T.....I left the 5w20 on the shelf and now wish I bought it for my 2014 Focus which has DI....

Is it still the conventional wisdom that an occasional blast to near redline can help with carbon buildup on valves?.....I ask because the posts mentioning how hard carbon is make me wonder.
 
Originally Posted by pbm
Originally Posted by Ignatius
I consider Valvoline Advanced Synthetic to be among the best at preventing carbon buildup.

I consider Valvoline Modern Engine, if their marketing claims are to be believed, an oil that will potentially clean up carbon deposits.


I believe that VME could do a better job at preventing carbon buildup in a DI engine....BUT.... I would have a hard time believing that it could clean up carbon deposits that are already present.
I picked up about 15 qts. of VME 0w20 during the AZ 'Clearance' last December thinking I'd use it in my brother's new Accord 1.5T.....I left the 5w20 on the shelf and now wish I bought it for my 2014 Focus which has DI....

Is it still the conventional wisdom that an occasional blast to near redline can help with carbon buildup on valves?.....I ask because the posts mentioning how hard carbon is make me wonder.


I agree.

Well the Afton study showed high load increased IVD's.
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Originally Posted by pbm
Originally Posted by Ignatius
I consider Valvoline Advanced Synthetic to be among the best at preventing carbon buildup.

I consider Valvoline Modern Engine, if their marketing claims are to be believed, an oil that will potentially clean up carbon deposits.


I believe that VME could do a better job at preventing carbon buildup in a DI engine....BUT.... I would have a hard time believing that it could clean up carbon deposits that are already present.
I picked up about 15 qts. of VME 0w20 during the AZ 'Clearance' last December thinking I'd use it in my brother's new Accord 1.5T.....I left the 5w20 on the shelf and now wish I bought it for my 2014 Focus which has DI....

Is it still the conventional wisdom that an occasional blast to near redline can help with carbon buildup on valves?.....I ask because the posts mentioning how hard carbon is make me wonder.

Isn't VME considered a one-time use product? Someone at BITOG recently mentioned only using it once every 50-100K?
I wonder if precautions exist on the wording label?
 
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by pbm
Originally Posted by Ignatius
I consider Valvoline Advanced Synthetic to be among the best at preventing carbon buildup.

I consider Valvoline Modern Engine, if their marketing claims are to be believed, an oil that will potentially clean up carbon deposits.


I believe that VME could do a better job at preventing carbon buildup in a DI engine....BUT.... I would have a hard time believing that it could clean up carbon deposits that are already present.
I picked up about 15 qts. of VME 0w20 during the AZ 'Clearance' last December thinking I'd use it in my brother's new Accord 1.5T.....I left the 5w20 on the shelf and now wish I bought it for my 2014 Focus which has DI....

Is it still the conventional wisdom that an occasional blast to near redline can help with carbon buildup on valves?.....I ask because the posts mentioning how hard carbon is make me wonder.

Isn't VME considered a one-time use product? Someone at BITOG recently mentioned only using it once every 50-100K?




huh? Valvoline Modern Engine is a dexos approved synthetic oil that you can use from beginning to end. You're thinking of Valvoline Premium Blue Restore. Entirely different product.
 
Yep - I mixed-up the abbreviations.......thanks.
Then does Blue Restore fit this carbon-cleaning conversation -as a cleaner and not as a prevent-product?
 
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No problem.

Blue Restore is more for cleaning the rings and other areas, although it may help clean IVD? Good question. I don' t think it would. The idea behind keeping IVD's at bay, which can only be mitigated to a minimal extent, is to use an oil with a lower SA level that has good base oil quality and as little VII's as possible.
 
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