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Originally Posted by PeterPolyol
But your 'success' has been with the 5W20 lol, how did you sneak 0W20 into there? What do you need the 0W rating for? What would you miss out on if you ran the 5W20?


Miss out on?
PAO....... MORE Group-IV in them-there 0W-20 jugs. Most times, lots more PAO.
 
Originally Posted by KevinP
BTW.... this is all sarcasm. I know it is just circumstantial but there are millions of vehicles running 0W-20 oils and soon to be 0W-16 oils and I don't see them coming off the road because of engine lubrication failures.


It's not a matter of "coming off the road" or "filling up the junkyards". It's about the relationship between viscosity and engine protection.

0W-16 oils better have a lot of anti-wear additives to make up what's lost from less viscosity.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...engine-wear-test-development#Post4781847
 
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by PeterPolyol
But your 'success' has been with the 5W20 lol, how did you sneak 0W20 into there? What do you need the 0W rating for? What would you miss out on if you ran the 5W20?


Miss out on?
PAO....... MORE Group-IV in them-there 0W-20 jugs. Most times, lots more PAO.


PAO is fine, not as much of it is used in OTC formulations as we'd like to think, and they're there as they are required to meet MINIMUM oxidation stability requirements in wide spread grades, not to offer you a better value or make it perform any better than say GrII Delo 15W30 in any regard other than cold cranking. In terms of wear protection and deposit control, I'd put my money on the GrII Delo TBQH

So, yes you can take the finest (in specific areas) base oils and load them up with junk VIIs to meet viscosity and you're left with a middling oil with middling oxidation and middling volatility.... with expensive base. I see no value in that.
 
Originally Posted by tig1
I used M1 5-20 in the late 70's in a Dodge Slant 6 with no problems at all, year round.


:sigh:...and as we've been over this ad-nauseum, the early M1 5W20 was VII free, and all done with basestocks.

So it was like saying that you were running redline 5W20, with the HTHS of an ILSAC 30, in an era that the 10W40s fell apart in 500 miles.

Again, and I'm probably not exaggerating that this is our 50th time at this dance....
 
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Originally Posted by Snagglefoot

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
There is very little viscosity difference between a 20 weight oil and a 40 weight oil at 100 C. Now watch the thickie's heads explode.


Only about 50% in KV100 and 40% in HTHS.

Is math your strong point ???

Because logic certainly isn't unfortunately.


Yep, maybe 8 vs 16, but not 600 vs 3000 cst. The engines run fine with 8, 10, 12, 16 cst. Very little difference. Anyone notice that?


Engines are designed around the design point, which is around the 100C mark (or 150C commonly in the bearings, NOT at the cold start point.

So, YES there is a marked difference between 8, 10, 12, and 16.

So we now understand that it's BOTH math and logic that you struggle with.

Here's a representation of MOFT versus HTHS for a given test engine...pick 2.6 versus 4.1...SEE THERE's a DIFFERENCE...at operating temperature...at the design point

moft hths line.jpg
 
Originally Posted by PeterPolyol
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by PeterPolyol
But your 'success' has been with the 5W20 lol, how did you sneak 0W20 into there? What do you need the 0W rating for? What would you miss out on if you ran the 5W20?


Miss out on?
PAO....... MORE Group-IV in them-there 0W-20 jugs. Most times, lots more PAO.


PAO is fine, not as much of it is used in OTC formulations as we'd like to think, and they're there as they are required to meet MINIMUM oxidation stability requirements in wide spread grades, not to offer you a better value or make it perform any better than say GrII Delo 15W30 in any regard other than cold cranking. In terms of wear protection and deposit control, I'd put my money on the GrII Delo TBQH

So, yes you can take the finest (in specific areas) base oils and load them up with junk VIIs to meet viscosity and you're left with a middling oil with middling oxidation and middling volatility.... with expensive base. I see no value in that.


Forewarning us is nice of you Peter. But please offer us with some brand names that are middling 0W20s that can't be on the same dance floor with their counterpart 5W20s?
 
Just a friendly reminder. A bottle of 5w40 at 20 degrees C ( room temperature) has a kinematic viscosity of about 600 centistokes(cst). A bottle of 5w20 at the same temperature has of kinematic viscosity of 100 cst. It gives people the warm and fuzzies of having this nice thick oil in their engine. You can clearly see the difference when you pour it. Fake news.

At an operating temperature of 100 C, the 5w40 is at 14 cst and the 5w20 is at 8 cst. Barely any difference and a major reason Ford, Chevy, Chrysler and many others don't lose sleep over it. Go ahead and run 40 weight. Makes no significant difference. There is all sorts of data of disassembling high mileage engines that used 5w20 that had no measurable wear.

Also there are all sorts of European engines using 5w40 where " it only burns a quart every 3,000 miles." Anyway, enough said. I don't think there have been many posts bringing this viscosity discrepancy to bear, so I decided to bring that forward. 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 cST. Take your pick. Doesn't matter. No more personal attacks please. You know who you are.


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You are misrepresenting the concern of operational viscosity with the strawnan cold pumping.

That is a major difference between the viscosities that you are quoting at operating temperature, and a corresponding marked difference in oil film thickness.. at operating temperature, which is the DESIGN POINT of the engine.

Cold oil that has a lower viscosity than its peer is simply "less wrong" at starting temperature, and clearly does not support your claim that there is minimal difference in oils at operating temperature.

It's ok not understanding stuff.. really.. but Galileo turned out to be right.. you arent
 
What else would you drive in ND
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Just got it this year. Used with 90,000 miles. Ist winter with it. Its a great pickup so far. I dont know the previous repair records so unsure of what oil and frequency of changes. The 4.7 is one of the hated engines in a lot of the Dodge community. From sludge issues to lifter tick (lash adjusters) and broken exhaust manifold bolts. Taken care of the 4.7 is a very good engine tho. I have been doing a few quick oil changes to get any possible sludge out. I put 0w20 in for the winter. Like here some guys on the Dodge forums swear on using 0w20 with no issues. Possibly helping the sludge issue. Other guys of course think the world will end with that water. Currently I have the start-up tic. Lasts about 3-5 min. could be the lifters,but I know I have exhaust manifold leak so Im just putting up with it for now. A lot of the Dodge guys will just tell you those engines all tic at start up just get used to it. Its funny a little comment on 0w20 oil creates such passion
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Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Just a friendly reminder. A bottle of 5w40 at 20 degrees C ( room temperature) has a kinematic viscosity of about 600 centistokes(cst). A bottle of 5w20 at the same temperature has of kinematic viscosity of 100 cst. It gives people the warm and fuzzies of having this nice thick oil in their engine. You can clearly see the difference when you pour it. Fake news.

At an operating temperature of 100 C, the 5w40 is at 14 cst and the 5w20 is at 8 cst. Barely any difference and a major reason Ford, Chevy, Chrysler and many others don't lose sleep over it. Go ahead and run 40 weight. Makes no significant difference. There is all sorts of data of disassembling high mileage engines that used 5w20 that had no measurable wear.
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in situations where owners manual calls for 5w30.....

I have never met an average-Joe passenger vehicle engine that failed to let me notice the difference between 5W20 and 5w40. The engines always displayed themselves as being smoother and faster using 5w20...... ALWAYS and noticeably too.
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
You are misrepresenting the concern of operational viscosity with the strawnan cold pumping.

That is a major difference between the viscosities that you are quoting at operating temperature, and a corresponding marked difference in oil film thickness.


Yeah, some guys just don't understand that a small difference in hot viscosity and HTHS certainly does make a difference. Lots of scary technical papers over the last 50 years support it all. But yet the "empty junk yards" strawman seems to be more believable to people who can't grasp the engineering test data.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
...more like a 20w-20...


LOL that made me laugh. Might have actually be a 19W21 rounded...
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Originally Posted by Silver
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
...more like a 20w-20...


LOL that made me laugh. Might have actually be a 19W21 rounded...
smile.gif



Comically, they still exist, despite the obsolete nature of the grade
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