E85 Experiment.

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E85 has the highest gasoline concentration and lowest ethanol concentration in the warmest months, opposite in the coldest months, due to seasonal volatility regulations.
 
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
E85 has the highest gasoline concentration and lowest ethanol concentration in the warmest months, opposite in the coldest months, due to seasonal volatility regulations.


I know I sound pompous with these short replies, but you are wrong. I, along with 1000's of other automotive performance enthusiasts have verified the content for many years. For example, it's typical to see the ethanol content drop to around 70 percent in Upstate NY from Oct-April, and rise to around 83 percent from May-Sept.
 
Talk to the US EPA regarding volatility controls for blending gasoline inuding E85. What you are speaking of violates federal regulations.If you have honest scientific analytical data showing what you report here, it should be teported to the US EPA.

I have never blended gasoline specifically for the NE US but Federal regulations are the minimum standard, any state or local boutique fuels must be at least as stringent as federal standards, and thus are often more restrictive (CARB fuels are a good example of a set of boutique fuel standards).
 
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Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Talk to the US EPA regarding volatility controls for blending gasoline inuding E85. What you are speaking of violates federal regulations.

I have never blended gasoline specifically for the NE US but Federal regulations are the minimum standard, any state or local boutique fuels must be at least as stringent as federal standards, and thus are often more restrictive (CARB fuels are a good example of a set of boutique fuel standards).
 
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
E85 has the highest gasoline concentration and lowest ethanol concentration in the warmest months, opposite in the coldest months, due to seasonal volatility regulations.



Here are two websites that substantiate the information that I provided while disproving your claims-

https://openei.org/wiki/E85_Standards

https://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/27/when-is-e85-not-85-percent-ethanol-when-its-e70-with-an-e85-st/

I am sure I could find many more. You do seem to be very knowledgeable in regards to fuel, but you are wrong in this case. Chalk it up to a 'brain [censored]' perhaps?
 
Yeah, EPA really is not the equation when it comes to seasonal ethanol concentrations of E85. Less ethanol is used in E85 during cold months for starting issues. Some engines do not start reliability in extreme cold on high concentrations of ethanol. The fuel doesn't vaporize properly. In warm months, ethanol vaporizes easier so higher concentrations can be used and maintain reliability. It's a physics thing, not a EPA thing.

But considering that E85 is staying right about 80-90 cents a gallon cheaper than regular, I will still use it. Into my second year of full time E85 use. Even took a 2000 mile road trip to Wyoming this year and used E85 exclusively for the entire trip. And I encourage others not to use the stuff so I can keep getting it cheap. Filled up a day ago with E85 for $1.53 a gallon. If that is due to reduced taxes on the fuel, great. I pay more in taxes in one year than the average person in my state makes for an annual wage. The price of owning and running a small business. I will take every tax break I can get my hands on.
 
I stand corrected for E85 seasonality. Things can and do change.

As I mentioned I have not blended gasoline gor the NE US but plenty for the south and southwest US and export to Mexico. It should be noted that ambient sumner tempetatures here in the Alamo City are significantly higher than most points of higher latitude and could be just a bit different, especially pre-2010, about when I retired. E85 was always described by blenders after me requiring almost 50% gasoline for summer volatility controls but I admit as I previously posted boutique markets are different and Atlanta was a big market at that time (well before 2010) for example.

Lowest vapor pressure season is warmest months and requires lowest ethanol concentration for volatilty control, opposite in coldest months. See the link I posted regarding how rapidly vapor presdure increases with temperature in my first post this thread, and ask questions for clarification on what is not understood.

Here is direct link to EPA web site on gasoline RVP

https://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/gasoline-reid-vapor-pressure

which details the "somewhat blind eye" turned to evaporative emissions of other motor gasolines blended with ethanol. Ethanol raises the vapor pressure of otherwise fully formulated gasoline and in most cases is goven some degree of waiver for its increase in gasoline volatility after blending with ethanol.

So perhaps summer E85 is now contributing considerably more to VOC emissions on a per-gallon basis than E10, which is definitely a higher contribitor than conventional gasoline but E10 has waivers.
 
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Yeah, EPA really is not the equation when it comes to seasonal ethanol concentrations of E85. Less ethanol is used in E85 during cold months for starting issues. Some engines do not start reliability in extreme cold on high concentrations of ethanol. The fuel doesn't vaporize properly. In warm months, ethanol vaporizes easier so higher concentrations can be used and maintain reliability. It's a physics thing, not a EPA thing.

But considering that E85 is staying right about 80-90 cents a gallon cheaper than regular, I will still use it. Into my second year of full time E85 use. Even took a 2000 mile road trip to Wyoming this year and used E85 exclusively for the entire trip. And I encourage others not to use the stuff so I can keep getting it cheap. Filled up a day ago with E85 for $1.53 a gallon. If that is due to reduced taxes on the fuel, great. I pay more in taxes in one year than the average person in my state makes for an annual wage. The price of owning and running a small business. I will take every tax break I can get my hands on.

Interesting - do you pay higher taxes than a person making an average salary while yourself making an average or less annual income compared to that annual salary? When I was part owner of a small business it did indeed help my tax position but I made well above an average salary in my state at that time.
 
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Yeah, EPA really is not the equation when it comes to seasonal ethanol concentrations of E85. Less ethanol is used in E85 during cold months for starting issues. Some engines do not start reliability in extreme cold on high concentrations of ethanol. The fuel doesn't vaporize properly. In warm months, ethanol vaporizes easier so higher concentrations can be used and maintain reliability. It's a physics thing, not a EPA thing.

But considering that E85 is staying right about 80-90 cents a gallon cheaper than regular, I will still use it. Into my second year of full time E85 use. Even took a 2000 mile road trip to Wyoming this year and used E85 exclusively for the entire trip. And I encourage others not to use the stuff so I can keep getting it cheap. Filled up a day ago with E85 for $1.53 a gallon. If that is due to reduced taxes on the fuel, great. I pay more in taxes in one year than the average person in my state makes for an annual wage. The price of owning and running a small business. I will take every tax break I can get my hands on.

Interesting - do you pay higher taxes than a person making an average salary while yourself making an average or less annual income compared to that annual salary? When I was part owner of a small business it did indeed help my tax position but I made well above an average salary in my state at that time.


My net from my business last year was about $28,000, after I paid myself about $41,000, the average income for my state. Between myself and my business, over $42,000 in cumulative various taxes. Roughly $13,000 in fuel taxes alone. Then there is payroll taxes, commercial vehicle licensing taxes and highway use taxes, property taxes, Federal excise taxes, and on and on and on.

But it was nice to fill up my 3/4 ton pickup with E85 yesterday for $1.34 a gallon. Nice to get a little bit of a break now and then. The Gooberment (state and federal) always finds a way to make up for it elsewhere in my life.
 
Originally Posted by AP9
If it weren't for the tax subsidies, E85 would invariably be worse value for the money at point-of-sale. Probably even more expensive per gallon.


Its amazing how stupid and dumbed down many of us Americans have become.

Ethanol in fuel does nothing except enrich the family incomes of the people you elect to office. What really drives me crazy is it is so blatant, Ethanol does far more harm to the environment.

and those tax subsidies? again, dumbed down Americans think there is such a thing as government money. Not thinking that the government is taking the money from your paycheck and redistributing it to causes that they think best which is usually whatever special interest group puts the most money into their campaign.
 
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Exactly above.

E85 is a purely monetary decision

When it's half the price of regular gas it's worth burning in spades.

It's also great racing fuel
 
It doesn't look like there are very many areas where it makes financial sense.
 
Originally Posted by hatt
It doesn't look like there are very many areas where it makes financial sense.


One of the only things good about flyover country in the middle
$0.85 e85
 
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by hatt
It doesn't look like there are very many areas where it makes financial sense.


One of the only things good about flyover country in the middle
$0.85 e85

If we didn't waste most of the ethanol by putting it in regular gas a lot more places could have cheap e85.
 
I ran E85 almost exclusively in my old '09 MB C300 as the $$ spread always had me ahead using E85 vs 93 octane, it was $1-2/tank so not too terribly much. On a time basis it probably was more valuable to use premium as the E85 had me at the pump 1.5x more often.

My C300 ran better on E85, anytime I would have to switch back to 93 it would feel like a cruise ship anchor was tossed out back during the adaption period and even after the adaption it still just did not have the ooopmh it had on E85.

Cold starts were interesting when temps dropped down to freezing and below, one of the first times I experienced multiple misfires on a modern engine on a 20 some odd degree old start. I would bog the engine down almost to stalling trying to do the uphill exit out of my gate that was a few hundred feet from my parked location as the E85 is that bad at burning in the cold.

My E350 doesnt allow for E85 so I am off the juice for now, even if I still had my C300 the spread has gone back to 93 being the value fuel. There is nothing wrong with E85 and if the $$$$ make sense run it.
 
And that is my primary motivation.... whatever provides me the lowest cost per mile to use.

Filled up yesterday with E85 for $1.10 a gallon. My 2015 Chevy 2500 6.0 averages locally about 10 mpg on the stuff. On E0 or E10, it averages about 13 mpg, 14 on a good day. Regular E10 fuel at the same station is going for $1.90 a gallon where I got the E85 for $1.10 (E0 is 30-40 cents higher nearby). So just to break even on the 11 cent a mile fuel cost by using E85, my 3/4 ton pickup would have to average almost 17 mpg on E10 regular fuel or 20 mpg on E0. That is not going to happen in either case, so I fill with E85.

This is why I am totally sold on flex fuel vehicles. I can use a smorgasbord of fuel choices, selecting the one that is the best value and changing as seasonal fuel prices change. For the last 6 years I have used E0, E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, and E85. The last two years on E85 exclusively because of the price advantage.
 
Lots to do with where you live ... I'd have to drive a long, long way to find E85 ... but we do have one CNG outlet here that is mainly used by company vehicles ... but sold to the public ...
 
For fuel economy when premium gas prices was still over $3 E85 prices were under well under $2 around here (like $1.79) and it was definitely worth it even though my turbo BMWs fuel system was no where near adequate to run E85 beyond a 50/50 mix with gasoline and that was with in tank upgrade. NOW with gas here being under $2 there is no cost benefit.

However the benefit for E85 is tuning. Even with a 30% E85/gas mix I could run WAY more timing (like 5 deg more midrange up) and several more lbs of boost with no timing pull from the ECM. The car was a monster on E85 with E85 tune compared to gasoline. And I ran it that way almost exclusively for over 120K miles with E85 mix until the accessory belt snapped and got sucked into the crank case at 205K miles (completely unrelated to E85 or tuning).

If you have a "flex fuel" vehicle you aren't going to see power benefits without at least tune adjustments. You have to take advantage of the knock resistance which obviously OEMs could care less about. They just want to believe you have flexible fuel options. I literally only have ONE E85 station anywhere close to me...fortunately its 5 miles from my house. That meant if I found myself too far away from home or not being able to make it back to that pump I'd have to flash back to a gas tune (a one minute process but I'd still have to pull over somewhere).
 
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