VOA - Idemitsu ATF Type H Plus (DW1)

[ctechbob]

Finally got a VOA done on the Idemitsu ATF Type H Plus. This the Idemitsu version of Honda ATF DW1. Haven't had a chance to sit down and compare it to actual DW1 yet and the only VOA of 'real' DW1 is the Russian one that was posted here a while back (I've also reposted it to this thread).

I'm including the AISIN DW1 Clone as well that was pulled from these forums for comparison.

 

[ctechbob]

All 3 fluids thrown into a spreadsheet for comparison. The two non-Honda fluids are certainly not the same add pack. I can say that I've been using the Idemitsu stuff with no issues to report, and will probably use it interchangeably with Honda DW1 depending on price. Although, the AISIN is certainly tempting as well seeing as its similar to the Idemitsu.

 

[Sayjac]

Thanks for adding the Idemitsu type H+ VOA and to the Aisin VOA done by member dan_erickson and the spreadsheet comparison. Same as with the Aisin product, as noted VOA shows Idemitsu H+ to NOT be the same as DW1.

When H+ been discussed on the ATF board in my observation it has been implied if not stated that because DW1 is allegedly sourced from Idemitsu, that H+ was/is the same product. Using this VOA as basis, clearly that is not the case. As can be seen, there are significant add pack differences in Boron, Ca, Phosphorus, Magnesium and Zinc. Given those facts, not only would I say it a not DW1 clone, imo not that similar at all. Also seems that while some willing to take a leap of faith that because a product may be sourced same as an OEM fluid, or labeled in way that appears to imply it's the same, doesn't always make it fact.

All that said, doesn't mean if the price was right for either the Aisin or Idemitsu product that I wouldn't use it in my Honda applications, I would. However, seeing as I've been using readily available MaxLife MV in a couple Hondas for many miles and years, and satisfied, it would have to be in the ~$18/ gal range to pique my interest. My .02

Thanks again for your efforts.

 

[Dan55]

Well said!

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by ctechbob
All 3 fluids thrown into a spreadsheet for comparison. The two non-Honda fluids are certainly not the same add pack. I can say that I've been using the Idemitsu stuff with no issues to report, and will probably use it interchangeably with Honda DW1 depending on price. Although, the AISIN is certainly tempting as well seeing as its similar to the Idemitsu.



It appears the Honda DW-1 Column has the Phos and Zinc reversed. I think this needs to be compared with a recent VOA of Honda DW-1 since I know of no ATF's with this signature.

 

[Sayjac]

Blackstone's comments about DW1 on member dan_erickson's Aisin DW1 'formula' VOA appear to correspond to the posted DW1 VOA. On DW1 virgin samples, ….. "contains more boron, calcium, magnesium, and zink, but has no phosphorus."

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...rand-dw-1-transmission-fluid#Post4604932

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by Sayjac
Blackstone's comments about DW1 on member dan_erickson's Aisin DW1 'formula' VOA appear to correspond to the posted DW1 VOA. On DW1, ….. "contains more boron, calcium, magnesium, and zink, but has no phosphorus."

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...rand-dw-1-transmission-fluid#Post4604932



Yes, but:

1) Blackstone is speaking to the Aisin Analysis specifically,

2) I am speaking specifically to the third column, Honda DW-1 Column, which appears to have the Phos and Zinc reversed. I think this needs to be compared with a recent VOA of Honda DW-1 since I know of no ATF's with this signature,

3) Blackstone doesn't formulate ATF's.

 

[Sayjac]

So you're saying the imaged DW1 VOA itself is wrong, Z should read 2 and Phos 356. Realize that Blackstone doesn't formulate ATF's, not posited. Quote was simply about DW1 virgin samples Blackstone had apparently seen. I haven't a Blackstone DW1 VOA. Perhaps since one OP posted now questioned, someone will.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by Sayjac
So you're saying the imaged DW1 VOA itself is wrong, Z should read 2 and Phos 356....

Yes.

I am saying the Third Column of the image in post #4995280 must be incorrect.

It was determined some time ago that what was needed was a good AW chemistry which resulted in a multi-functional phosphorylated component, which in VOA's, shows an average phosphorus content of from 300 to 350 ppm, depending on the Lab.

The zinc seen in current ATF's is simply the result of a small amount of ZDDP added as a secondary anti-oxidant.

 

[Sayjac]

My last reference is to the original posted image of the DW1 VOA in the first post #4995272, from which the DW1 third column info of the OPs spreadsheet post #4995280 is derived. You're saying that's inaccurate, and number reversed for those two additives. I suppose if that's case then the accuracy of entire DW1 VOA the OP posted could be called into question. For accuracy purposes, when I posted 356, actual number shown on VOA is 351.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by Sayjac
My last reference is to the original posted image of the DW1 VOA in the first post #4995272, from which the DW1 third column info of the OPs spreadsheet post #4995280 is derived. You're saying that's inaccurate, and number reversed for those two additives. I suppose if that's case then the accuracy of entire DW1 VOA the OP posted could be called into question. For accuracy purposes, when I posted 356, actual number shown on VOA is 351.



Yes, for the second time, I am saying the Third Column of the image (spreadsheet) in post #4995280 must be incorrect.

The Phos and the zinc have obviously been swapped.

Since the image in post #4995280 is a Spreadsheet and not an image of the Original Analyses, someone swapped the zinc and phos values when it was entered.

If you look at the PDF in the OP you'll see the problem.

 

[ctechbob]

Probably my fault on the swapped numbers. It was 3am when I did the spreadsheet.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted by ctechbob
Probably my fault on the swapped numbers....
Care to show or explain to me what numbers you swapped and/or where you swapped them? As I read the "Russian" DW1 VOA image in the OP, your spreadsheet matches that information. What am I missing?

 

[bulwnkl]

I think the Russian Oil Club image's numbers are what Molakule is really challenging, as they were correctly transcribed into the 3-column spreadsheet.

I have not run a VOA on DW-1, but I did run a ~10k mile UOA on my 2013 Honda pickup's factory-fill ATF. That showed:
Zn 379
P 0

Thus, I'm not certain the Russian Oil Club's VOA is incorrect.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by bulwnkl
I think the Russian Oil Club image's numbers are what Molakule is really challenging, as they were correctly transcribed into the 3-column spreadsheet.

I have not run a VOA on DW-1, but I did run a ~10k mile UOA on my 2013 Honda pickup's factory-fill ATF. That showed:
Zn 379
P 0

Thus, I'm not certain the Russian Oil Club's VOA is incorrect.



If your test results showed those values have it retested because it can't be correct.

No one formulates modern Step-Shift transmission ATF with 0 Phos and that much zinc.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted by bulwnkl
I think the Russian Oil Club image's numbers are what Molakule is really challenging, as they were correctly transcribed into the 3-column spreadsheet.

I have not run a VOA on DW-1, but I did run a ~10k mile UOA on my 2013 Honda pickup's factory-fill ATF. That showed:
Zn 379
P 0

Thus, I'm not certain the Russian Oil Club's VOA is incorrect.
Which is precisely the point I was making, and thus the query about the spreadsheet info. I appreciate you confirming seeing the same thing I do. As the OP has not responded to my query I assume he too has been unable to find any discrepancy between his spreadsheet figures for DW1 and the source info ie., the Russian language VOA the OP posted.

Thanks for your reply here. Also thanks again to the OP for his efforts.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by Sayjac
Originally Posted by bulwnkl
I think the Russian Oil Club image's numbers are what Molakule is really challenging, as they were correctly transcribed into the 3-column spreadsheet.

I have not run a VOA on DW-1, but I did run a ~10k mile UOA on my 2013 Honda pickup's factory-fill ATF. That showed:
Zn 379
P 0

Thus, I'm not certain the Russian Oil Club's VOA is incorrect.
Which is precisely the point I was making, and thus the query about the spreadsheet info. I appreciate you confirming seeing the same thing I do. As the OP has not responded to my query I assume he too has been unable to find any discrepancy between his spreadsheet figures for DW1 and the source info ie., the Russian language VOA the OP posted.

Thanks for your reply here. Also thanks again to the OP for his efforts.

UOA Honda DW-1, P 26, Zn 278

 

[bulwnkl]

Originally Posted by MolaKule


If your test results showed those values have it retested because it can't be correct.

No one formulates modern Step-Shift transmission ATF with 0 Phos and that much zinc.


I see no reason to think there was an error. Honda has used a high-Zn, low- (or no-) P ATF formulation for a very long time. They appear to have stuck with that strategy through the switch to DW-1. Have they changed the underlying formulation without saying anything? Perhaps you can tell us that.

Step-shift A/Ts are _very_ new for Honda. My pickup's tranny is the same older-technology 5-speed of the sort they used for ages. Viscosity was correct for DW-1, though.

I may run a VOA on some DW-1 I bought the other day. Or not.

 

[zeng]

I've no doubt on the 'correct' elemental formulations of Honda DW-1 as per above table with nil/low P.
Kindly note Honda's (usually) high 413 ppm Boron.

 

[ctechbob]

The thing I'm most curious about is, if Idemitsu bottles 'real' DW1 for Honda, why is their version so significantly different. Does it just not matter and the AISIN and Idemitsu 'equivalents' work just as well?

Brings me to the discussion I had with the guy that rebuilt the transmission for my wife's 2000 Accord. I got into a discussion with him on the fluid they use. His feeling was not the fluid used, but that it gets changed on a regular basis. He told me he would have no problem with honoring his warranty if I used DW1, a 'clone', or Maxlife as long as I changed it at reasonable intervals. Keep in mind that this guy's business is pretty much just rebuilding Honda Transmissions. His dad and him have been doing it since his dad worked for Honda way back so I trust his opinion.

I think that probably backs up what many people say about using Maxlife in Honda's. If the trans is going to fail, its not really going to be the fluid that causes it as long as its been maintained.