Is medical school worth the debt in the long run ?

[Win]

When the admission requirements are dumbed down, the graduation requirements can't be far behind.

Then the professional boards will have to be dumbed down, so the folks that never should have been admitted in the first place, can pass and get their license.

I chuckled a little bit about the well rounded thing. That sounds like a bunch of academics completely out of touch with the real world. I can't recall the last time someone sat in my office, and wanted to chat about Charlemagne. They're generally more interested in solutions to their problem(s).

 

[Mr Nice]

Forgetting the loans (how you pay for medical school).....

The studies are designed to weed out the weaker students. Its a decision that only a student can make to give 150% effort to make it through and eventually become a doctor.

I work in healthcare and have seen the growth of physician assistants and nurse practitioners seeing patients. Lots of RN nurses see the $$$ and go to school to become a PA or NP. That's exactly what my sister in law did.

 

[demarpaint]

Go for plastic surgery, and do nose and boob jobs were wealthy people pay out of pocket. Those doctors do quite well.

 

[Spector]

I spent most of my career on the peripheral of health care and worked with most of the larger teaching hospitals in the southeast. What started maybe 20 years ago is that the enrollment in the programs changed from basically an all white male applicant to now over 50% minority and foreign students. Why, my theory is that the white American male realized that being a physician was not a lucrative career any more and went into finance or other fields. However, the minority student and especially the foreign students still believe medicine for them is a high paying career and they flooded the medical schools so that now the majority of doctors coming out are in these two groups, the minority are white American males.

At least that is my theory. So depending on your background what is a lucrative career for some is not for others.

And as someone noted, in today's world one has to be one's own healthcare advocate, no one else cares anymore, the docs are too busy, too much paperwork too many regs and IMO they just don't care.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted by Win
When the admission requirements are dumbed down, the graduation requirements can't be far behind.

Then the professional boards will have to be dumbed down, so the folks that never should have been admitted in the first place, can pass and get their license.

I chuckled a little bit about the well rounded thing. That sounds like a bunch of academics completely out of touch with the real world. I can't recall the last time someone sat in my office, and wanted to chat about Charlemagne. They're generally more interested in solutions to their problem(s).




You needn't worry

Medical Schools are not dumbing down admissions requirements.

 

[Mr Nice]

Originally Posted by demarpaint
Go for plastic surgery, and do nose and boob jobs were wealthy people pay out of pocket. Those doctors do quite well.


Yeah. There is one here on BITOG and he is crazy rich.

 

[Astro14]

While cosmetic plastic surgery pays very well, a lot of those procedures are done by general surgeons.

Much of the discipline of plastics is in reconstruction, not cosmetics. Further, some great work is being done in the field in restoring nerve and limb function to trauma victims. An inter-disciplinary area of advancement between Neuro and Plastic surgeons.

Plastic surgery is, at the moment, the most competitive discipline for residency. It's the hardest to get into. Perhaps because some of them will make serious money when complete, but a lot of the kids who want to go into plastics are doing so to do reconstruction - to make people's lives better.

Back to the original question in the thread: is medical school worth the debt?

The answer is: yes.

IF you're smart about how much debt, and realistic about your salary expectations when complete. Borrowing nearly half a million, and becoming, say, a pediatrician in a small own making $100,000 leaves you prone to declaring bankruptcy. That foolishness puts a young doctor in an untenable position. Borrowing half a million and starting at half a million/year when you start your career, and you're very well on your way.

As an example, my daughter and I discussed the military as an option. Medical school tuition paid for, and a housing allowance while there, in return for 4 years of service. With the average medical school tuition (private schools) at, or above $60,000/year, plus living expenses, that's a lot of money.

She had run the numbers. She would be finished residency four years sooner if she didn't do the military route (I was pushing flight surgeon, get to fly, get Uncle Sam to pay for school, then leave and do a residency program). She would have four more years at top salary. Even with the loans, and the debt, she was ahead by getting through residency sooner.

 

[Mr Nice]

Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by Win
When the admission requirements are dumbed down, the graduation requirements can't be far behind.

Then the professional boards will have to be dumbed down, so the folks that never should have been admitted in the first place, can pass and get their license.

I chuckled a little bit about the well rounded thing. That sounds like a bunch of academics completely out of touch with the real world. I can't recall the last time someone sat in my office, and wanted to chat about Charlemagne. They're generally more interested in solutions to their problem(s).



You needn't worry

Medical Schools are not dumbing down admissions requirements.


ZERO possibility they will dumb down the requirements for medical school.

For mickey mouse degrees....
Yes, they dumb down the requirements to keep the students flowing in and the $$$ rolling in.

Recently I attended a college graduation for a communications major and the basketball auditorium was packed with honor students with easy degrees.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Depends on whether or not one wants to perform surgery. The AMA have a defacto monopoly on licensing.

 

[PandaBear]

This is from what I heard: you need to be a specialist instead of a general practitioner, or you won't make the big money. If you want to make it with low debt you need to join the military and get them to train you instead of going to a private school and borrow the money.

With the political pressure to lower medical cost I think the future will not be better for doctors in general, I don't think people going into it for the money should. They would be better off doing computer sciences and work in tech. That's the relatively low debt way to mid 100k - mid 200k long term income, but you will likely not make 300k+ year after year like surgeons do (they will probably have a 500k+ debt when they finally start practicing).

 

[Doc8404]

Many doctors I talk to say to go the NP or PA route.

 

[Donald]

If my passion was to help people with their medical problems then I would find a way to pay for medical school. But I would not become a doctor to become rich.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by Alfred_B
Doctors are always one of the highest paid in any society.


Which is why their jobs are just begging to be automated away. We're already at the point where a trip to the doctor is usually solely to get them to sign the prescription for the drugs Google has already told us we need; all that tax money the government pays the doctor to sign the prescription could be eliminated and replaced with an app.

And that's before you consider that medicine is being revolutionized by our ever-improving understanding of the human body. It's about to become an engineering discipline based around DNA and custom cures, not prodding and poking.

So, yeah, you may be right that medical staff will be among the highest paid in twenty years. But they're unlikely to be the people who are training to be doctors today.


Doctor is spending less and less time for each patient these days. Today I just went to see a doctor because my daughter has an ear infection. The total process took about 2 hours in the building, about 5 to 10 mins of doctor's inspection time, and nurses do the rest, and about 1 hr of waiting in between each of them. This includes cleaning out the ear wax, checking weight, asking and writing notes for the doctors, checking for insurance info, etc.

Very soon we will not have a real doctor in the office, the nurse will use AI to do everything and then the doctor will remotely analyze and tell you what it is, and answer your questions on "what about", "what ifs", "how about" like a chat bot would (because they are dealing with 5 other patients at a time). This will be after all the local hospitals all adopt to this practice to reduce overhead (the number of doctors needed) and consolidation / monopoly, or after the insurance companies try to squeeze the cost again and again.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by PandaBear
Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by Alfred_B
Doctors are always one of the highest paid in any society.


Which is why their jobs are just begging to be automated away. We're already at the point where a trip to the doctor is usually solely to get them to sign the prescription for the drugs Google has already told us we need; all that tax money the government pays the doctor to sign the prescription could be eliminated and replaced with an app.

And that's before you consider that medicine is being revolutionized by our ever-improving understanding of the human body. It's about to become an engineering discipline based around DNA and custom cures, not prodding and poking.

So, yeah, you may be right that medical staff will be among the highest paid in twenty years. But they're unlikely to be the people who are training to be doctors today.


Doctor is spending less and less time for each patient these days. Today I just went to see a doctor because my daughter has an ear infection. The total process took about 2 hours in the building, about 5 to 10 mins of doctor's inspection time, and nurses do the rest, and about 1 hr of waiting in between each of them. This includes cleaning out the ear wax, checking weight, asking and writing notes for the doctors, checking for insurance info, etc.

Very soon we will not have a real doctor in the office, the nurse will use AI to do everything and then the doctor will remotely analyze and tell you what it is, and answer your questions on "what about", "what ifs", "how about" like a chat bot would (because they are dealing with 5 other patients at a time). This will be after all the local hospitals all adopt to this practice to reduce overhead (the number of doctors needed) and consolidation / monopoly, or after the insurance companies try to squeeze the cost again and again.






The apps are already out there. The larger healthcare organizations have apps where you can talk to a health professional. For very simple cases, this works. The parameters are in place so that people that need to come and see a doctor or go to the hospital are directed to do that.

In my situation having type 2 diabetes, I have been to the doctor twice this past year. But, the doctor was not a MD, he was a nurse practitioner. He takes care of patients who are stable and uncomplicated. The endocrinologist focuses on the severe cases. Unfortunately that practice just closed so I have to find another.

Healthcare is and has been changing rapidly. If I was thinking of going into healthcare I would look towards the bio end of it. Biotechnology, bioengineering, etc. The future is in targeted and customized care for the individual patient.

 

[Win]

Professions are an art as well as a science. When a machine can get gut feelings and know when to go with the gut and against "facts" that may or may not, likely may not, be well defined, then machines might have some utility.

Having practiced a profession, the idea that a machine can replace me strikes me as uninformed on the part of the machine proponents.

They just opened a new D.O. school here in town, btw. I think they are on their second or third class of students.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted by Donald
If my passion was to help people with their medical problems then I would find a way to pay for medical school. But I would not become a doctor to become rich.


Exactly.

 

[emg]

Originally Posted by Win
Professions are an art as well as a science. When a machine can get gut feelings and know when to go with the gut and against "facts" that may or may not, likely may not, be well defined, then machines might have some utility.


A machine processing hundreds or thousands of sensor readings won't need 'gut feelings', because it will know what's going on. Doctors need 'gut feelings' because they have limited access to data and a limited ability to process large amounts of data even if they did have access to it.

Constant health-monitoring would be a booming business if governments weren't in the way. I have an ECG on my wrist right now, but I'm not allowed to use it because the Canadian government says medical innovation is scary. Similarly, I believe that's the reason why Fitbit haven't enabled the blood-oxygen monitoring that's been built into their hardware for a while (or maybe they have now, I haven't been following them for the last year or two).

There's at least one company which will do a full MRI and DNA sequence and tell you what's likely to go wrong with your body in the future. And billions of dollars are going into developing treatments that will eliminate old age (and, consequently, all the diseases of old age), with the first generation expected to be available in five years or so.

If it wasn't for the huge regulatory barriers to entry in the medical field, there'd be a whole lot less need for doctors already. But since healthcare is about to bankrupt the United States and is not exactly economical in the socialized healthcare nations either, those barriers are going to come down because there won't be any other choice except to let millions die.

 

[stockrex]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Unfortunately some doctors use their license to print money. Lots of fraud in healthcare and only a small percentage of crooks get caught.



So true, Medicare uses algorithms, they know who are ripping off the system, there are businesses who audit and get money back for Medicare and get a %. Fraud seems to be the norm now.

Medical schools will take "anyone" who can pay. And most who can "pay" are not the sharpest tool in the chest. My buddies oldest is going to med school, I am not an anxious person but some times I wake up with cold sweats thinking of his oldest being a doctor and treating patients.

We have a law school in town, where smart attorney's like Cohen learned their fine skills, I have worked with a bunch of attorneys who graduated from said school, ONLY 1 out of nearly a dozen had any caliber what so ever, but all of them have a JD, so go figure.

Crazy $$$ is in transplants, the transplant surgeon parked his Bentley next to my corolla every morning, his paint jobs was worth more many times more than my corolla.

End of the day, be very suspicious of a surgeon pushing a procedure, ask if it is necessary.

The federal prison term for these crooks are too lenient.

 

[SonofJoe]

My lad's a doctor here in The UK.

He graduated aged 23 in 2007 after five hard years at uni. I reckon, all in, it cost me around £40k ($US 52k). Thanks to the joys of socialism, I emerged debt free from uni in '78. I wanted the same thing for him & was more than happy to pick up the tab.

After several years of working like stink as a junior doctor in a variety of hospitals (and even more studying in his own time to pass the other requisite exams) he made consultant at 34. I don't know but I'd hazard a guess he's now on about £80k/year ($US 98k/year) before tax. Doctors in the UK get paid relatively well here but aren't typically filthy rich like in The US.

For me the pay off isn't economic. He doesn't tell me much about work but I occasionally get to hear something. Like in the first week of his first job (so literally straight out of uni) he had to tell a patient & his family who had been waiting all day for news, that he had inoperable bariatric cancer & only had a few weeks to live. The consultant who 'should' have been the one to tell them apparently couldn't be arsed & my lad stepped up. Then there was the time he was part of the crash team who battled for hours to bring a two year old back to life after he had fallen into a neighbours pond, only to see him die. Then there was the placetal abruption where the floor of the operating theatre was awash with blood because it was coming out as fast as they could pump it in, yet both mother & the baby survived. When I hear these stories, my heart swells with pride at what my clever lad does day in, day out. Some things are beyond price!

 

[dave1251]

It has to a profession someone takes for the love of the profession. You will be living a stressful career living like a peasant for a decade while paying off student debt.